"Try Castles & Crusades", they say. But no one's playing it!

[Philotomy Jurament]

It's the "Baghdad Bob" effect...

We have their gaming tables surrounded! We will meet them with d20s and shoes! I can say, and I am responsible for what I am saying...that they have begun to commit suicide around their battlemats! We are outselling them at the Baghdad Airport! There are no 3E sales at the airport! None! Never! Do not believe their lies.



(I don't want to get dragged into the niche/popularity/anecdote tangent, but that Baghdad Bob thing was too good to pass up. The Iraqi Info Minister just kills me -- he's hilarious.)

 

[bento]

I would contend that it's not the system that's the problem - I say it's you.

Whatever happened to YMMV?

3.5 obviously works for you, but maybe you have players who are also putting back into the game what they get out.

IMHO the OP sounded like he wanted a rule set that wouldn't be too taxing for him to DM, save on some prep time and give his friends a few hours of fun. There are other games out there that fit this mark and that's his question.

 

[buzz]

To Mr Mishler's credit, he is so confident that C&C is a success in the marketplace that he has founded a company that will provide support for the line!

I find Amazon pretty credible as a sales-data resource for Joe Gamer, so I buy that C&C is selling well for a not-top-10 publisher. It's the "more than any other d20 product" save DCC that I don't buy 100%. C&C seems to be doing well for itself, regardless.

Doesn't make me want to play it, a 'course.

 

[Presto2112]

I agree, sometimes players just AREN'T amenable. But the real question is: Which is more of a priority for you: DMing a game that's burning you out, or simply not playing or finding another group if you can?

It's not just a matter of being amenable. D&D is the only game I've known since roughly 1987 (with a small break for some Palladium in the mid 90s), and frankly, it's the only game I care to play. I have one other guy in my group who keeps trying to persuade me to play other games (Babylon 5, Iron Kingdoms, etc.), some of them are just variations on D&D, but I'm just not interested. I can certainly understand some people getting burned out on it, but personally, I'm nowhere near that point yet.

 

[Pramas]

Ummm...what in the Nine Hells does he mean by "the hobby market?"

He means the network of game stores through which most RPG books are sold. The book trade, which is stores like B&N, Borders, and Waldenbooks, is a separate market that works a little differently (the biggest difference being the books are returnable). Most printed RPG stuff is sold in the hobby but not the book trade. Companies like WotC, White Wolf, and Green Ronin sell in both. The statistics that Comics and Games Retailer magazine collects are from the hobby but not the book trade.

Monte Cook has said the following: a runaway success for a third-party publisher (even one as clearly successful as Malhavoc) is a drop in the bucket compared to WotC's sales.

This is true as far as core books go. D&D has sold in the hundreds of thousands. For third party companies, 2,000 copies of a core book sold is a success, 3,000 is a hit, and 5,000 is a breakout hit.

 

[JohnSnow]

He means the network of game stores through which most RPG books are sold. The book trade, which is stores like B&N, Borders, and Waldenbooks, is a separate market that works a little differently (the biggest difference being the books are returnable). Most printed RPG stuff is sold in the hobby but not the book trade. Companies like WotC, White Wolf, and Green Ronin sell in both. The statistics that Comics and Games Retailer magazine collects are from the hobby but not the book trade.


This is true as far as core books go. D&D has sold in the hundreds of thousands. For third party companies, 2,000 copies of a core book sold is a success, 3,000 is a hit, and 5,000 is a breakout hit.

Thanks Chris!

So, a breakout hit in the Hobby trade doesn't include the book trade. Meaning that it wouldn't include products bought through B&N, Borders, Waldenbooks, Wal-Mart, or even Amazon. Or probably direct sales.

Are you including the big (non-WotC) publishers like yourself when you say third party companies? In other words, would you guys at Green Ronin consider 5,000 copies of a core book to be a breakout hit?

My guess is no, but I'm curious as to your response.

 

[Pramas]

Thanks Chris!

So, a breakout hit in the Hobby trade doesn't include the book trade. Meaning that it wouldn't include products bought through B&N, Borders, Waldenbooks, Wal-Mart, or even Amazon. Or probably direct sales.

When I was talking numbers, I meant total sales in all channels. There are some titles that can sell over 5,000 in the hobby alone.

Are you including the big (non-WotC) publishers like yourself when you say third party companies?

Yes.

In other words, would you guys at Green Ronin consider 5,000 copies of a core book to be a breakout hit?

This sort of thing can change over time.

In the 1990s: yes.
In 2000-2003: no.
2004-present: yes.

 

[der_kluge]

Whatever happened to YMMV?

3.5 obviously works for you, but maybe you have players who are also putting back into the game what they get out.

IMHO the OP sounded like he wanted a rule set that wouldn't be too taxing for him to DM, save on some prep time and give his friends a few hours of fun. There are other games out there that fit this mark and that's his question.

My point is, he's looking for a system to solve all his problem. Me thinks his expectations might be set a little high. I believe one should select a system based on the sort of feel that it's going to provide - not to solve gaming difficulties.

 

[RFisher]

D&D 3.5 has burned me out completely, so much so that I stopped RPGing altogether for about six months;

I spent a lot of time struggling with 3e because I thought it was everything I wanted, yet I was never happy with it. I've been so much happier since I've discovered what I thought I wanted from a system wasn't really what I wanted.

The problem with that advice, though, is that D&D 3.5 is the game everyone wants to play. Obviously, there are exceptions, but for the most part, D&D 3.5 is the 800 lb. gorilla for a reason. It doesn't matter how great Castles & Crusades (or any other game) is if you end up playing it by yourself.

I continue to be astonished when people relate this sort of experience. The vast majority of gamers I've known have been more than happy to play whatever someone offers to run. I've even seen gamers who talked trash about a system & swore they'd never play it be the first to say yes the moment someone wanted to run that system.

I mean, I believe you, but I boggle that your experience can be so different from mine.

What I don't understand, is why play C&C, when you can play real AD&D 1st edition?

Well, here's one C&C playtester who, in the end, decided to go with classic D&D rather than C&C.

I was really hoping for a game that had everything I liked about classic D&D but that was in print so that I wouldn't have to send any new players to eBay or second-hand stores if they wanted their own copy of the rules. (Although, second-hand classic D&D isn't that hard to get & is reasonably priced.) In the end, though, I just didn't like it enough to choose it over the classic. (My players haven't really needed their own copies either.)

(I was also hoping for something that would be a good introduction to the hobby for a nephew who lives too far away for me to mentor. But that was never a goal of C&C.)

But, I could see myself running it someday or barrowing things from it for classic.

I've never even seen a copy of C&C here in Dallas/FW

My FLGS has been keeping at least one C&C PHB in stock. They have a copy of most of the other C&C products as well. Although, it would be easy to miss them.

But that surprises me. With the rise of online shopping, I find it's hard to find a good selection of any type of product in a brick & mortar.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

I continue to be astonished when people relate this sort of experience. The vast majority of gamers I've known have been more than happy to play whatever someone offers to run...I mean, I believe you, but I boggle that your experience can be so different from mine.

Yeah, me too. It's just never been in problem, in my experience. Maybe it's a regional or generational thing?

But, I could see myself running [C&C] someday or barrowing things from it for classic.

When I picked up C&C, I was also considering B/X or BECMI (among other systems). I came very close to running B/X with the SIEGE engine grafted on, but I decided to give C&C a try by itself, first. Classic D&D remains one of my favorite games, though. The best campaign I ever ran, to date, was a BECMI campaign. My current C&C game has a tenuous storyline-connection to that BECMI campaign, actually -- and three of the same players (out of six).