Trying out a super-sale

GMSkarka · Jan 22, 2004

extra post

GMSkarka · Jan 22, 2004

extra post

Dana_Jorgensen · Jan 23, 2004

GMSkarka said:
With all due respect to Dana's.....interesting take on the issue, I would say that if a 20-dollar guide represents an "unjustafiable expense", then the "publisher" in question has cash-flow issues (not to mention a critical lack of business sense), and would represent precisely the sort of basement-press fanboy amateur that RPGNow needs to stop coddling.

Sorry to be so blunt, but that's just how I am. Publishing is a business, folks---and PDF publishing stands to increase sales considerably if it can be accepted as a genuine branch of publishing, rather than continuing to be seen as a haven for amateurs who happen to have a copy of Acrobat.

Griping about a $20 "unjustafiable expense" is a perfect example of the image problem standing in the way of the next level of success for this part of the industry.

GMS

Where did you learn your business skills? It doesn't matter if the damned book costs 20 cents, 20 dollars or 20,000 dollars, if it is something that provides nothing of value to the person you'd be trying to force it on, then it is an unwarranted purchase and an unjustifiable expense, regardless how big a company is.

As I've pointed out, not everyone signing up on RPGnow will be some newbie amatuer looking to release his or her first book. I myself have been selling books online, in PDF format and print, since 1995, longer than most of the paid contributors of the book have been doing so. I do not think it will be anything but a waste of $20 for anyone who has been involved with e-publishing for more than 2 or 3 years.

And let's not forget the stigma attached to forced purchases. RPGnow would develop a reputation similar to those job recruitment agencies that charge the job seekers a fee, rather than just collecting a commission from employers doing the hiring. Or worse yet, it would be like one of those agencies that attempts to force you to take some sort of qualifications exam that you're forced to pay for.

RangerWickett · Jan 23, 2004

We should definitely only hire people with prior job experience. Oh, and you can't drive Mom's car until you've had more practice driving, okay?

Here's a simple solution, though coding it might be difficult. Charge a $20 deposit start-up fee. As you make sales, you don't owe RPGNow any percentage until the amount you would owe surpasses $20. So if you manage to sell at least a fair number of books, this ends up making no impact on you at all. But it cuts down on the number of people who'd just upload something and sell only 2 copies.

Example: NE1 Publishing is a new company, and they want to sell Chimes at Midnight, a book about what it's like for characters to die, and how to roleplay through it. They intend to sell it at $5 a pop, which means they'll get $4 and RPGNow will get $1. They pay the $20 startup fee, and go to work. Chimes only sells 8 copies, but the $8 that would normally go to RPGNow is already covered with the startup, so NE1 gets $40, minus $20 from the initial investment, for a net gain of $20. If we didn't use this system, instead they'd make $32, and RPGNow would get $8.

When Chimes sells 25 copies, NE1 will owe RPGNow a $25 cut, but they already paid $20, so they only have to pay an extra $5. Sound good?

By the way, I was certain when we first released Wild Spellcraft in pdf form that we'd make no more than 30 sales.

GMSkarka · Jan 24, 2004

Dana_Jorgensen said:
Where did you learn your business skills?

Working in the gaming business since 1988....and you, Dana?

Don't be insulting. You never know when it will make you look ridiculous in public.

$20 is a *negligible* amount. Print publishers outlay much more than that in fulfilment, shipping and distributor's cuts. The fact that you're also getting a book of solid advice is an added benefit.

The simple fact of the matter is that it would set a bar that would simulataneously keep out amateurs as well as unrealistic complainers who whinge over a twenty dollar expenditure...and that fact alone makes it a good idea as far as I'm concerned.

Dana_Jorgensen said:
I myself have been selling books online, in PDF format and print, since 1995, longer than most of the paid contributors of the book have been doing so.

I think you need to take a look at that list of paid contributors again, Dana. I'm on the list, and I've been in this business since the late 80s. Same with John Nephew. Hell, Greg Porter's been doing this longer than I have. Then you have folks like Mark Arsenault. Monte Cook. Jim Butler.

I really don't think that I need to continue. I think I've made my point.

Dana_Jorgensen said:
I do not think it will be anything but a waste of $20 for anyone who has been involved with e-publishing for more than 2 or 3 years.

You're certainly free to think so. You'd be wrong, but hey--it wouldn't be the first time, as has been adequately demonstrated.

GMS

Cergorach · Jan 24, 2004

RangerWickett said:
Here's a simple solution, though coding it might be difficult. Charge a $20 deposit start-up fee. As you make sales, you don't owe RPGNow any percentage until the amount you would owe surpasses $20. So if you manage to sell at least a fair number of books, this ends up making no impact on you at all. But it cuts down on the number of people who'd just upload something and sell only 2 copies.

This sounds pretty doable, but i would up the ante, so to speak, to a $100 deposit or $25 per product. That should be a high enough bar...

jmucchiello · Jan 24, 2004

Cergorach said:
This sounds pretty doable, but i would up the ante, so to speak, to a $100 deposit or $25 per product. That should be a high enough bar...

Why should the "ante" be upped? I'd rather fledgling publishers put that $100 into improving their product UP FRONT. Not wasting it on some superfluous need to PROVE themselves worthy. A $100 barrier to entry would have kept me out of publishing Joe's Book of Enchantment in August of 2002. I didn't expect to sell more than 20 of them. It's a critically favored PDF that your ante would have prevented from existing. Good plan.

Cergorach · Jan 24, 2004

jmucchiello said:
Why should the "ante" be upped? I'd rather fledgling publishers put that $100 into improving their product UP FRONT. Not wasting it on some superfluous need to PROVE themselves worthy. A $100 barrier to entry would have kept me out of publishing Joe's Book of Enchantment in August of 2002. I didn't expect to sell more than 20 of them. It's a critically favored PDF that your ante would have prevented from existing. Good plan.

First of, the d20 pdf market in august 2002 was a different place then it is now. Second, you could still have published it, just not on RPGnow.

Dana_Jorgensen · Jan 25, 2004

GMSkarka said:
Working in the gaming business since 1988....and you, Dana?

Don't be insulting. You never know when it will make you look ridiculous in public.

I've been working with print products, from newspapers to magazines, novels to textbooks to technical manuals, on and off since 1985. I've been working with RPGs since 1992. And I've been dealing with epublishing since 1995. With access to all the proper equipment, I have the skills and experience to take a project from an idea to a final physical product product in the marketplace, without even a single other person needing to provide any assistance with any aspect of the process. So tell me, exactly how qualified does this nebulous "working in the gaming business since 1988" make you?

$20 is a *negligible* amount. Print publishers outlay much more than that in fulfilment, shipping and distributor's cuts. The fact that you're also getting a book of solid advice is an added benefit.

That's a rather improper comparison. The cuts for overhead, fulfillment, shipping, and distribution are necessities of being a manufacturer. An overpriced book pushed on people who may not need it isn't, regardless whether or not the dollar amount is negligible.

The simple fact of the matter is that it would set a bar that would simulataneously keep out amateurs as well as unrealistic complainers who whinge over a twenty dollar expenditure...and that fact alone makes it a good idea as far as I'm concerned.

Unrealistic? What was that you were saying about being insulting? I certainly don't want to pay $20 for a book that's filled with "advice" which is probably nothing more than the usual regurgitation of things I learned years ago. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if some of that advice was stuff I know some of those contributors heard me say in the past.

I think you need to take a look at that list of paid contributors again, Dana. I'm on the list, and I've been in this business since the late 80s. Same with John Nephew. Hell, Greg Porter's been doing this longer than I have. Then you have folks like Mark Arsenault. Monte Cook. Jim Butler.

I really don't think that I need to continue. I think I've made my point.

"Being in the business" does not equate with "being in business". Writing isn't the same as being a manufacturer. Incidentally, out of all those people you've mentioned, Greg Porter is the only one who has been e-publishing as long as I have. The rest are newcomers to the epublishing business, most of which haven't been dealing with electronic products more than a couple years. Let's not forget the way your very own boss likes to go on about how different the print and epublishing markets are. From my own 19 years experience in print media and 9 years experience in epublishing, I know most business sense of print media doesn't work well in epublishing.

You're certainly free to think so. You'd be wrong, but hey--it wouldn't be the first time, as has been adequately demonstrated.

Ah, once again, you can't follow your own advice. You did say something about not being insulting. Now, exactly who demonstrated I was wrong?

jmucchiello · Jan 25, 2004

Cergorach said:
First of, the d20 pdf market in august 2002 was a different place then it is now. Second, you could still have published it, just not on RPGnow.

First, why? I was still potentially just off the turnip truck. The book could just as easily been complete garbage as it could have been a masterpiece. There's no way I could guarentee it was not the former based on reputation.

Second, for money? Without another publisher? That would have been a nightmare I would not have tolerated. And would not have done it. Without RPGNow, there would be no Joe's Book of Enchantment. Now that I'm "IN", I see no reason to raise the bar of entry on those who follow me. Who knows when Who's Book of Whatnot will come out and wow us all.

Why seek exclusion?