Trying to Describe "Narrative-Style Gameplay" to a Current Player in Real-World Terms

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

As someone who's a George Lucas but loves progression, my own personal take is that I want it to feel a good change in power and capabilities over time.

Also because I don't care about the fictional world, I respect it ofc, but It's a polite respect.

Yep, you definitely are a George Lucas.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Aww. Poor George.

I think he cops a lot of crap he doesn't deserve. I can't imagine that, when he was first making Star Wars, he was expecting the sort of buy-in he got. Die hard fans who dove into the universe of SW and just wanted to know more, MORE, MORE!

George Lucas was making an action movie. Light in mood and fast paced. So of course things happened for reasons of plot.

Worrying about world building beyond the immediate needs of the story is, let's face it, a pretty niche interest.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

I can't imagine that, when he was first making Star Wars, he was expecting the sort of buy-in he got.

Star Wars may be the worst thing that happened to George Lucas, but it is definitely the worst thing that happened to science fiction film. We'll never get another Silent Running or Rollerball or Zardoz.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think it's worth drilling in on this, because I think it's generally too reductive to cut the player motivation down to just "get better stuff." Stuff, progression, all that is nearly always in service to other goals. Personal power is directly correlated with agency; better stuff is very rarely the end goal of what a player wants, it's a sub goal that makes them better able to consistently get whatever it is they do want, and it's universally pursuable, even if other goals aren't currently clear. Our Han may not know yet that he wants to join the rebellion, but if he was independently wealthy it would be much easier to do so, once he's decided to become a revolutionary.

If there's any progression in a system at all, and the player wants to orient themselves to align with the character's desires, then there's always a mechanical incentive to try and get better.

One another note I want to tack on here (because I mostly agree, some players really do just like seeing numbers go up) is that progression systems also have a nice counterbalancing effect to narrative downer moments too.

Its frequently a steady win state of accrual that makes narrative failure states more palatable. It conveys growth even through failure, and therefore a form of victory.

 

[Umbran]

That said, if your player wants to play a game where they can feel like they are demonstrably improving and you don't want to run such a game, maybe the real answer is you two shouldn't be playing this particular game together.

Not knowing the player... I'd not go to that point yet.

Because, the real question becomes... what does improvement look like?

Every Star Wars story is a story of ever-rising stakes. If you are surviving ever-rising stakes, of course you are getting better, improving, in some sense. So, how do you do that?

Luke clearly improves in power over the course of Episodes IV - VI. But he doesn't do it "to be more powerful" - that's literally the Dark Side. He does it because it is his legacy. And he does it to save the gorram galaxy from oppression! He does it by becoming his better self over time.

And, the OP already notes that Han and Lando both started as money-grubbing scoundrels. They improve by becoming better people.

So, a character so mercenary as to loot bodies for tech for a few credits is a fine starting point for a character. The question is where he goes from there.

 

[Umbran]

Star Wars may be the worst thing that happened to George Lucas, but it is definitely the worst thing that happened to science fiction film. We'll never get another Silent Running or Rollerball or Zardoz.

Zardoz is more than enough Zardoz. We don't need another.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Zardoz is more than enough Zardoz. We don't need another.

My second will call on you in the morning.

 

[Umbran]

My second will call on you in the morning.

Your second can bite me.

Aiming to make the next Zardoz implies that there is something incomplete about, or less-than-perfection in, Sean Connery in a diaper.

All attempts to recapture or reinvent that lightning in a bottle are doomed to be self-mockery.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Star Wars may be the worst thing that happened to George Lucas, but it is definitely the worst thing that happened to science fiction film. We'll never get another Silent Running or Rollerball or Zardoz.

I haven't seen Zardoz or Silent Running, but reading quick reviews I'm down to give them a try.

Rollerball... Honestly, it's fine. A stand out for it's time in many ways. But I think it was most notable at the time for it's glossy violence. (The violence is pale by today's standards, obviously.) I know it was trying to convey a message but I don't think it did a good job of it. I'd go so far as to say, kinda lame. Star Wars by not having a message avoids this particular pitfall.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Not knowing the player... I'd not go to that point yet.

Because, the real question becomes... what does improvement look like?

Every Star Wars story is a story of ever-rising stakes. If you are surviving ever-rising stakes, of course you are getting better, improving, in some sense. So, how do you do that?

Luke clearly improves in power over the course of Episodes IV - VI. But he doesn't do it "to be more powerful" - that's literally the Dark Side. He does it because it is his legacy. And he does it to save the gorram galaxy from oppression! He does it by becoming his better self over time.

And, the OP already notes that Han and Lando both started as money-grubbing scoundrels. They improve by becoming better people.

So, a character so mercenary as to loot bodies for tech for a few credits is a fine starting point for a character. The question is where he goes from there.

Wanting to get stronger isn't the dark side, giving into your negative emotions to achieve that power, and using it for selfish ends is, you can train to be more powerful all you like, most of what Luke does on Dagobah is work out. Though that said, he is riding the line by Return of the Jedi, what with the black outfit and all that. Han and Lando meanwhile, become commissioned Generals over the course of their stories and end up commanding soldiers and ships at the Battle of Endor, which I suppose is pretty much the "old school" high level progression experience.