TTRPGs: broken mechanics vs. abusive players

[Jd Smith1]

I was going to counter with the idea that the dead might not know for sure who killed them. But from a player's point of view, blocking the use of their abilities for contrived reasons can be pretty frustrating.

That's my point exactly. OK, the killer used a weapon that leaves a residue that blocks every spell. That makes a murderer investigation possible, but now you've got a player with a reasonable complaint that you've just neutralized his PC.

And that is just one tiny example. As pointed out, you've got much more invasive spells, talents, and abilities which eliminate extended non-combat interaction.

I'm all for PCs developing abilities which made them more effective in non-combat and combat situations, but there still should be room for player innovation beyond that of memorizing an ever-growing list of illogical abilities.

 

[MGibster]

That's my point exactly. OK, the killer used a weapon that leaves a residue that blocks every spell. That makes a murderer investigation possible, but now you've got a player with a reasonable complaint that you've just neutralized his PC.

You could have the murder victim, or whoever is dead, provide the PCs with clues, but perhaps the circumstances of his death means he didn't see who murdered him. Or perhaps he saw who murdered him, but that's only the beginning of the mystery as the PCs need to figure out who hired him or something.

And that is just one tiny example. As pointed out, you've got much more invasive spells, talents, and abilities which eliminate extended non-combat interaction.

Yeah, you're right. With D&D in particular, it's spell after spell that makes obstacles meaningless the more levels the PCs have.

 

[The Shadow]

A lot of the problem with these sorts of spells, it seems to me, is that they work too reliably. If things like Speak With Dead required rolls to work or carried any kind of risk, the party might be inclined to save it until after mundane skills had been tried.

In almost any fantasy story or legend I can easily think of, calling up a shade to ask who murdered it would be a big deal. You don't mess with that kind of thing if you don't have to.

But D&D magic is basically humdrum. It just plain works - no muss, no fuss. It's kind of disappointing, really.

 

[The Shadow]

The bigger headaches are spells like Commune, which no precautions can overcome. These blow mysteries of any kind all to hell.

This one makes my point even better. You're communing with a GOD. You should have to make checks to see if you even remember what you were going to ask!

And legendarily, asking for direct answers this way often leads to trouble - the Delphic oracle being a good example. The one-word response is letting the character off easy, the answers should be cryptic!

But Commune is a spell a high-level cleric can cast multiple times a day! It's routine. There's a dissonance here that I find off-putting.

 

[Lanefan]

Ok, let me try again to explain what happened. Now Magic Circle says "You create a 10-foot-radius, 20-foot-tall cylinder of magical energy centered on a point on the ground that you can see within range. Glowing runes appear wherever the intersects with the floor or other surface. The relevant bullet point is: "The creature can't willingly enter the cylinder by nonmagical means. If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to do so, it must first succeed on a Charisma saving throw."

Ok now imagine this. You have a 30' x 30' room, a dungeon crawl classic.

_ __
I xI
I D (MC)
I xI

So the Magic Circle is outside the door. A player opens the door and backs up. The undead in question has 5' reach, thus cannot attack that player with a melee attack. The party is free to use ranged attacks since the creature cannot exit the room.

Why couldn't the creature move to one of the places I took the liberty of marking with an 'x' in your diagram and getting flat against the wall, such that ranged attacks couldn't target it without the shooter coming through the door?

 

[Lanefan]

So the dungeon has a different, permanent, Forbiddence in every room and corridor. Now you cannot teleport, use ant summoning or access any bags of holding or the like until you dispel the effect, and this needs to be dispelled in every location. Oh and if any of your party happens to be of a certain type, they are likely going to die or be forced to retreat.

Something tells me that if summoning ants is that high on their list of go-tos for problem solving, they've got issues I can't fix.

 

[James Gasik]

Why couldn't the creature move to one of the places I took the liberty of marking with an 'x' in your diagram and getting flat against the wall, such that ranged attacks couldn't target it without the shooter coming through the door?

Because, lol, as I said, I'm no artist and I don't have a photo of the room. The actual shape of the room was such that it really didn't have a good place to hide, I was just trying to demonstrate how the magic circle was used as a wall blocking the creature in. And yeah, again, maybe this was just the perfect scenario to showcase the spell's power, and I might never see anything like that again in play, but in the moment, it felt a bit cheesy.

 

[Jd Smith1]

You could have the murder victim, or whoever is dead, provide the PCs with clues, but perhaps the circumstances of his death means he didn't see who murdered him. Or perhaps he saw who murdered him, but that's only the beginning of the mystery as the PCs need to figure out who hired him or something.

There's work-arounds, but frankly, I prefer to use systems where magic is risky, and more action-oriented, forcing PCs to develop skills and actually think things through when dealing with investigations and social interaction.

Yeah, you're right. With D&D in particular, it's spell after spell that makes obstacles meaningless the more levels the PCs have.

It was a heartbreaker for me, because I had countless happy hours playing AD&D (1e) back in my early days of the hobby.

 

[Hussar]

Something tells me that if summoning ants is that high on their list of go-tos for problem solving, they've got issues I can't fix.

blows rasberries

Stupid autocorrect. That should be any summoning.

 

[Hussar]

Because, lol, as I said, I'm no artist and I don't have a photo of the room. The actual shape of the room was such that it really didn't have a good place to hide, I was just trying to demonstrate how the magic circle was used as a wall blocking the creature in. And yeah, again, maybe this was just the perfect scenario to showcase the spell's power, and I might never see anything like that again in play, but in the moment, it felt a bit cheesy.

See, for me, it's just a good example of the problem. It's not that spells are broken or whatnot. That's not really the issue. It's the spells (and it's generally spells, although there are other bits and bobs) become default. Like I said earlier, if something is so good that it's the obvious choice in most situations, then it's probably too good.

After all, why is Wall of Force only affected by Disintegrate? It can't be dispelled or even broken down? Why not? I can block an ancient dragon with a 5th level spell and there is nothing it can do about it? Seriously? These spells should have break DC's - after all, I can smash a Bigby's Hand, which is a force effect, so, why not Wall of Force?

And that really highlights the problem. The spell effects are so inconsistent. And those inconsistencies often are the root of problems. Frankly, it's pretty obvious that the higher level effects in 5e were never really play tested. There are just far, far too many effects there that are pretty over powered. And, again, if we go with the "oh, well, use the same tactics against the PC's", well, if I do that, I'll TPK the party every time because I have unlimited resources and they don't.