T'uen-rin

[Infiniti2000]

First, thanks to y'all for the wonderful work you've done!

As you most likely know, we've been running all the 3.5 monsters through the Battle of All Alignments. I'll be running the T’uen-rin for the next little while, and if you're interested to see how a t'uen-rin handles herself, stay tuned. But, I do have a couple of comments on the t'uen-rin.

1. I don't have the original source, but I did search through the threads where BOZ and Shade convert the t'uen-rin.

2. Invisibility makes a very poor spell choice when the t'uen-rin has invisibility at will as a SPA of the same caster level. I suggest replacing it with eagle's splendor.

3. Why have every single symbol spell? Although the t'uen-rin is not really supposed to be a combat critter, that is really a very poor series of selections, particularly without metamagic feats to compensate for the virtually useless spell slots. Was this choice due to the original source material or something? It will really suck, though, let me tell you. I don't see the t'uen-rin using many, if any, 5th through 7th-level slots. I need some decent lower level spells, so I'm gonna have to burn wishes to cast them instead.

 

[Lorehead]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do have a copy of Planescape Monstrous Compendium II, the cited source. I'd presume that the reason for the odd spell selection is the line, "They're especially fond of the schools of illusion and enchantment but won't hesitate to use extremely powerful spells such as symbols, wishes, or power words against very powerful evil entities." (p. 104)

To be honest, in your position, I wouldn't complain about this monster. And why use wish to get lower-level spells, when gate will get them and so much else besides?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Gate won't easily get to them. Do you know of how what LG extraplanar monsters (CR 20 and below) to choose from besides radiant dragons and planetars? I've looked in all my books and that's pretty much it. Any non-LG is an inferior choice for the Battle purposes.

But, the fact still remains that loading up all the spells known on symbols is a really poor decision on the t'uen-rin's part. I could see have a lot of non-combat spells, so I'm not trying to argue in favor of my needs in the Battle. I think her spell list should be changed. Picked a couple, may 2-3 symbol spells to keep and change the rest.

 

[Shade]

2. Invisibility makes a very poor spell choice when the t'uen-rin has invisibility at will as a SPA of the same caster level. I suggest replacing it with eagle's splendor.

Oops! I usually try to be very careful not to duplicate "at will" SLAs. Your suggestion of eagle's splendor is a good replacement.

3. Why have every single symbol spell? Although the t'uen-rin is not really supposed to be a combat critter, that is really a very poor series of selections, particularly without metamagic feats to compensate for the virtually useless spell slots. Was this choice due to the original source material or something? It will really suck, though, let me tell you. I don't see the t'uen-rin using many, if any, 5th through 7th-level slots. I need some decent lower level spells, so I'm gonna have to burn wishes to cast them instead.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do have a copy of Planescape Monstrous Compendium II, the cited source. I'd presume that the reason for the odd spell selection is the line, "They're especially fond of the schools of illusion and enchantment but won't hesitate to use extremely powerful spells such as symbols, wishes, or power words against very powerful evil entities." (p. 104)

It's been awhile since we did that one, but I suspect this was the case. In retrospect, I'd make the following replacements:

symbol of sleep --> mind fog
symbol of fear --> greater dispel magic
symbol of persuasion --> greater heroism
symbol of death --> dimensional lock
symbol of insanity --> scintillating pattern
power word kill --> mass hold monster

Thanks for the feedback. The Battle of All Alignments has been an excellent playtest ground for the CC creatures.

 

[Aspect of BOZ]

hi!

keep in mind, the spell list provided with the t'uen-rin, as well as any other creature in the MM with a similar spell list, is mean to be a "sample" spell list. therefore, it can be changed up by the DM if you're looking for something else.

invisibility was probably an oversight on our part. and yes, we favored heavily (too heavily?) the suggestion posted by lorehead. we figured, "they like symbols and power words? well let's go nuts with it!" if you're allowed to change up the spell list for the BoAA, shade's suggestions above should help you out.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Just having gate 6 times makes the t'uen-rin extremely powerful.

I would suggest leaving the following symbols: sleep, persuasian, weakness, and insanity. I would replace the following symbols: fear, stunning, and death. These changes allow some symbols, the less "kill-oriented" ones to be in-line with the original monster concept. Although fear and stunning are not deadly themselves, there would be too many symbols and stunning is not useful given power word stun.

Changing fear for greater dispel magic is an excellent choice as it would most certainly help them on their rare missions. Removing the world of evil magics is always a good thing to have.

Changing death for dimensional lock is also a good choice, particularly if the mission is a protective one.

We then need a new 7th-level spell choice. My opinion would be greater teleport (and then swap out teleport perhaps). But, there are a lot of other choices. Plane shift will help get her to the other planes (and coupled with greater dispel magic, she can then find her mission objective more easily, though discern location might help in that regard). Greater scrying would similarly help.

Changing out power word kill is an additional change that I'm not sure is necessary, but I like it because your suggestion of mass hold monster fits better within the monster conception.

Oh, another question, why doesn't the t'uen-rin have any DR? I think at least DR 10/magic would almost be a "requirement" for a CR20 creature. I'm guessing the ki-rin has no DR?

 

[Shade]

Just having gate 6 times makes the t'uen-rin extremely powerful.

Indeed!

I would suggest leaving the following symbols: sleep, persuasian, weakness, and insanity. I would replace the following symbols: fear, stunning, and death. These changes allow some symbols, the less "kill-oriented" ones to be in-line with the original monster concept. Although fear and stunning are not deadly themselves, there would be too many symbols and stunning is not useful given power word stun.

I could see a use for both stunning spells, as the symbol could be used to protect good locales when the 'rin is elsewhere. Fear and death probably should go, though.

Changing fear for greater dispel magic is an excellent choice as it would most certainly help them on their rare missions. Removing the world of evil magics is always a good thing to have.

Changing death for dimensional lock is also a good choice, particularly if the mission is a protective one.

My thoughts exactly. Plus, "T’uen-rin enjoy dealing with opponents such as greater demons and devils in a direct, physical approach rather than with magical abilities." Dimensional lock gets rid of that annoying greater teleport at will most of the fiends possess.

We then need a new 7th-level spell choice. My opinion would be greater teleport (and then swap out teleport perhaps). But, there are a lot of other choices. Plane shift will help get her to the other planes (and coupled with greater dispel magic, she can then find her mission objective more easily, though discern location might help in that regard). Greater scrying would similarly help.

Yeah, plane shift would explain how it gets to the Material Plane for missions.

Changing out power word kill is an additional change that I'm not sure is necessary, but I like it because your suggestion of mass hold monster fits better within the monster conception.

Yeah, "kill" seemed to severe for a creature that prefers nonlethal options.

Oh, another question, why doesn't the t'uen-rin have any DR? I think at least DR 10/magic would almost be a "requirement" for a CR20 creature. I'm guessing the ki-rin has no DR?

Yeah...followed the ki-rin's lead.

 

[Infiniti2000]

keep in mind, the spell list provided with the t'uen-rin, as well as any other creature in the MM with a similar spell list, is mean to be a "sample" spell list. therefore, it can be changed up by the DM if you're looking for something else.

Alas, as you've surmised, I can't change the spell list. But, YOU can and if you do so before Gansk sees this . . . *wink wink nudge nudge*



Regardless, the spell list should still be one that a typical t'uen-rin would have and I would say that the one provided definitely does not fit that category (the invisibility issue aside). Spells known are precious and most sorcerers would obtain scrolls for things like symbols which must be used with a great deal of preparation anyway. It could be argued that having more than 1 or 2 is not realistic, so my suggestion of leaving 4 is I think generous.

Anyway, thanks for listening and stay tuned to the Celestia arena for some CE smack down. Get out your Draconomicon if you really want to follow along.

 

[Lorehead]

Gate won't easily get to them. Do you know of how what LG extraplanar monsters (CR 20 and below) to choose from besides radiant dragons and planetars? I've looked in all my books and that's pretty much it. Any non-LG is an inferior choice for the Battle purposes.

Well, a partial list includes:

• Hound archon hero (MM 17)
• Trumpet archon (MM 18)
• Throne archon (BoED 162)
• The individual champions from chapter 7 of the BoED, if you're allowed to call them. Evansheer (p. 133) would make a good choice.
• The einherjar from Deities and Demigods
• An aspect of—never mind.

You also have the option, IIRC, to call magical beasts. Of these, the shedu is one of the least bad.

We then need a new 7th-level spell choice.

Limited wish?

 

[Shade]

Alas, as you've surmised, I can't change the spell list. But, YOU can and if you do so before Gansk sees this . . . *wink wink nudge nudge*

Unfortunately, as BOZ can attest, editing the CC entries is an incredible pain in the . If Gansk asks, though, point him here for our official "stamp of approval".