Tumble and full defense.

[Jhulae]

Okay... this came up in our game recently.

The DM said that you can't tumble and take a full defense because full defense only allows you to move.

Tumble states that a tumble can be taken as part of your move action.

So... Can you tumble and take a full defense?

Hypersmurf, I'd really like you to answer this (along with whomever else does) because you have a total grasp on the RAW.

 

[robberbaron]

Hmm. I reckon different DMs will have different views on this but, here is my twopennyworth:

Being able to Tumble gives you a bonus to your AC while in Total Defence (dodging and weaving, I suppose) so, there is a case for losing the extra bonus if you Tumble out of your square. After all, you are using Tumble to move rather than to dodge attacks.
If you used Total Defence and walked out of your square you would keep your extra Tumble bonus to AC.

Feel free to disagree.

 

[Jhulae]

Hmm. I reckon different DMs will have different views on this but, here is my twopennyworth:

Being able to Tumble gives you a bonus to your AC while in Total Defence (dodging and weaving, I suppose) so, there is a case for losing the extra bonus if you Tumble out of your square. After all, you are using Tumble to move rather than to dodge attacks.
If you used Total Defence and walked out of your square you would keep your extra Tumble bonus to AC.

Feel free to disagree.

Yeah, that just doesn't make sense at all. Because I can tumble for instance, making a defensive strike, and still get the +3 to AC. Note that nowhere does it state you actually have to tumble or not tumble to get the boosted bonus, just that you have to have the skill at a certain level, like a synergy.

Using the same reasoning, if you tumbled during your move (and had 5 ranks of tumble), you'd lose the +2 synergy bonus to balance if you were trying to balance on something. Doesn't make sense.

 

[FireLance]

In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.
In some situations (such as in a surprise round), you may be limited to taking only a single move action or standard action.
Standard Action: A standard action allows you to do something, most commonly make an attack or cast a spell. See Table: Actions in Combat for other standard actions.
Move Action: A move action allows you to move your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat.

Total Defense
You can defend yourself as a standard action. You get a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t combine total defense with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require you to declare an attack or full attack). You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.

TUMBLE
Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

Q.E.D.

 

[Jhulae]

TUMBLE
Action: Not applicable. Tumbling is part of movement, so a Tumble check is part of a move action.

Full defense may be a standard action, but you can take two moves with it (in essence, a 'standard action' and a 'move action', both of which can only be used for movement and which get the defensive bonus). Tumbling is a 'part of movement'.

 

[robberbaron]

Full defense may be a standard action, but you can take two moves with it.

You sure about that?
I read it that as taking Total Defence is a Standard Action you can only then take 1 Move Action, just like a Move and an attack.

Q.E.D.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Darklone]

Hehehe. As mentioned on the Kalamarboards: You get a higher dodge bonus to AC for having the skill ranks, not for using tumble. You can still tumble during your movement part of the full defense action.

 

[FireLance]

Full defense may be a standard action, but you can take two moves with it (in essence, a 'standard action' and a 'move action', both of which can only be used for movement and which get the defensive bonus). Tumbling is a 'part of movement'.

Ah, you must be thinking of this:

Total defense [Standard][AoO: No]
Description: A character doesn't attack or perform any other activity other than moving at base speed, but the character gets a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. The character's AC improves at the start of this action, so it helps against any attacks of opportunity provoked while moving.

In 3.0e you got to move while taking a total defense action. You don't get to do so in 3.5e (see my previous post). So, in 3.0e, it's up to the DM to decide whether moving during total defense is "normal movement".

 

[Hypersmurf]

You sure about that?
I read it that as taking Total Defence is a Standard Action you can only then take 1 Move Action, just like a Move and an attack.

Right.

If your speed is 30 feet, then in a round you could:

Move 30 feet (Standard action used as a Move action) and move another 30 feet (Move action);
or
Total Defense (Standard action) and move 30 feet (Move action).

But since that Move action is normal movement, you can Tumble with it (at half speed, or at full speed with a -10).

Total Defense doesn't 'only allow you to move'. The only restriction is that you can't make attacks of opportunity that round. Other than that, it's like any other standard action.

You can take the Total Defense action (Standard action) and load a light crossbow (Move action).
You can take the Total Defense action (Standard action) and direct a Flaming Sphere (Move action).
You can take the Total Defense action (Standard action) and cast Quickened Magic Missile (Free action) and sheathe your sword (Move action) and Quick Draw your longbow (Free action).

-Hyp.

 

[Jhulae]

Ah, you must be thinking of this:


In 3.0e you got to move while taking a total defense action. You don't get to do so in 3.5e (see my previous post). So, in 3.0e, it's up to the DM to decide whether moving during total defense is "normal movement".

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that full defense is a standard action. That *still* allows you to take a move action, where, you can tumble.

I know there's an action that lets you take two move actions. It might be Withdraw. I can't get to the SRD from work (it blocks the Wizards site).