Tumble question

Patman21967

First Post
Without being too longwinded, one of my players is a Half-Dragon Minotaur Fighter, who obviously can fly. The party was fighting a Dry Lich, riding the back of a maxed out Colossal Scorpion. The gist of the question is as follows: He wanted to fly up and attack the Lich, using his tumble skill to avoid AoO's of the Scorpion. Legit? I let him, but upon more recollection, I think it was not a "legal" move. He kinda convinced me....So I just wanted to know
 

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You can Tumble as part of 'normal movement'.

It depends whether you consider flying 'normal movement' or not.

My rule of thumb is 'If they have a listed speed, it's normal movement'.

So if a human is climbing: no Climb speed, no Tumble.
If a spider is climbing: listed Climb speed, so he can Tumble.

If you're crawling, you move 5' with a Move action, but you don't have a listed Crawl speed, so no Tumble.

I'd allow a Half-Dragon Minotaur to tumble while taking a move action to fly up to his Fly speed. (With the normal -10 unless he wants to fly at half speed.)

-Hyp.
 


Hmm... not sure on the 'no crawl speed' equal no tumble. I am not trying to argue that there is a crawl speed, but I think that if a player wanted his prone rogue to roll out of the way before getting to his/her feet it wouldn't be problematic (and WOULD be cinematic) to allow such.

I guess in that instance since tumbling costs double movement it would be a full-round action to tumble away.
 

Hodgie said:
Hmm... not sure on the 'no crawl speed' equal no tumble. I am not trying to argue that there is a crawl speed, but I think that if a player wanted his prone rogue to roll out of the way before getting to his/her feet it wouldn't be problematic (and WOULD be cinematic) to allow such.

As a house rule, sure :)

But crawling has enough differences from normal movement that I couldn't in good conscience agree that it qualifies as 'normal movement'.

And the AoO is provoked not for leaving a threatened square, but because you're crawling, so it's debatable as to whether Tumble applies for that reason as well.

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf's got it right about the Tumble check while flying as long as its part of normal movement. However, you may have forgotten to check the maneuverability guidelines. That half-dragon should have had average or worse maneuverability and thus had to move half his normal fly speed going forward or he stalls and falls 150' (or to the ground whichever is closer) at the end of his move. Tumbling reduces his rate by half automatically (unless he did the quick tumble and took a -10 to his check), and if he made any turns or gained/lost elevation, that would reduce his move further and likely would result in him stalling and falling either in front of the scorpion or at best on its back at the feet of the lich. And since falling is not flying, the scorpion likely could have got an AoO and maybe caught him in a pincer or something.

I disagree with Hypersmurf's "Crawl speed" thing. I checked through the MM and didn't notice crawling listed as any type of movement, or in the PHB or DMG. If he wants to institute a "crawl speed" for his games though, that's his choice. Crawling is not a special type of movement or one that requires its own distinction (as opposed to flying, burrowing, etc.), it is just ground movement done in a prone position. You're still moving across the ground, just on your hands and knees. Sea creatures have a swim speed, but they don't have different modes listed for doing the 'doggie paddle'. Flying creatures aren't given a glide speed either, so no reason that a crawl speed would be listed for those on the ground. Its common sense, but that's something that's often overlooked by people with the attitude 'if its not in the books specifically, it can't be done or it's not true D&D'.

Now since Tumble involves rolls, flips, etc., I don't see anything in the Tumble description that says the character cannot roll away from an adjacent target or flip to his feet as part of his movement (that would not provoke an AoO with a successful check). In fact, it is in the Tumble description that the character can ROLL, FLIP, SOMMERSAULT, or whatever through threatened areas without taking an AoO (on a successful check) and if you don't think Tumbling can be started from a prone position then you should go see some Chinese acrobats or Cirque Du Soliel or something like that. If your base move is 30', then you could Tumble up to 15' away from an adjacent enemy without taking the AoO. And if you can go from a standing position to a prone rolling one with this skill, then you can go from a prone rolling one to standing as part of the Tumble.

Think of how many martial arts movies you've seen where one person is rolling away from an enemy or flips up to their feet as soon as they get knocked back. If you want a couple of examples, take a look at the Mortal Kombat movie (the first one). In one of the first fights, Liu Kang fights a monk and at one time or another both are prone and flip up to a standing position instantly. In another fight, Liu Kang knocks Sub Zero down but the ninja still kicks him in the face as he's falling and then flips back up to his feet in the same motion! Not saying that movie runs by D&D rules, just that it provides examples regarding Tumbling and getting to your feet, moving through threatened areas, etc.
 

Hawken said:
I disagree with Hypersmurf's "Crawl speed" thing. I checked through the MM and didn't notice crawling listed as any type of movement, or in the PHB or DMG. If he wants to institute a "crawl speed" for his games though, that's his choice. Crawling is not a special type of movement or one that requires its own distinction (as opposed to flying, burrowing, etc.), it is just ground movement done in a prone position.

If your base move is 30', then you could Tumble up to 15' away from an adjacent enemy without taking the AoO. And if you can go from a standing position to a prone rolling one with this skill, then you can go from a prone rolling one to standing as part of the Tumble.

From the PHB, p142:
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.

-Hyp.
 

I didn't miss that. But there's nothing special about the crawling movement, not enough to get its own rate listed in monster entries. Climbing is a special form of movement, so it gets its own entry because certain creatures (spiders, etc.) can climb better than most people can walk.

But there is nothing in the rules that states because you are prone you HAVE to crawl. If you are able to flip and roll and such (Tumble) you can do so from virtually any position standing, prone, whatever. Tumbling is an action that is done as part of movement not a type of movement in itself. It's description doesn't state it can only be started from a standing position. If you base speed is 30' and you're adjacent to an enemy, you make a Tumble check and if you succeed, you can move 15' wherever you want (or 30' if you take the -10 penalty) without taking an AoO and in the course of that tumble a flip can have you on your feet. Voila! Prone to standing, no AoO! All that's needed is at ranks in Tumble and a friendly dice.

Hyper, instead of dealing with what you can't do in the book, why not deal with what you can do? Flipping and rolling are a part of tumbling and during the course of it, you go from standing to a prone position at some point in the tumble. When the tumble ends, you come out of that position and back to a standing one. Why is it so hard for people to accept that starting from a prone position and tumbling is any different from starting from a standing one?

And remember, that is your rule about if they have the speed listed for that kind of movement its normal movement. Not anyone elses unless they happened to come up with the same thing or just do what you're doing. Besides, if you want to get nitpicky about what is exactly in the book, crawling is listed in the PHB as a movement type for ALL players. So, everyone has that movement rate listed for crawling--just mentioned on that page so it doesn't have to be reprinted on character sheets, monster entries or anywhere else. In that case, the player could Tumble as part of his crawl and while he wouldn't move out of his area, a flip performed as part of his move IN that area would be more than enough to get him to his feet taking no AoO with a successful Tumble check.
 

Crawling:
You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl.


Which brings up the question, "Why does crawling provoke an AoO (because you are supposely "letting your guard down"), but a defenseless person lying unconscious on the ground does not?" heh :p
 

Hawken said:
Why is it so hard for people to accept that starting from a prone position and tumbling is any different from starting from a standing one?

Well, possibly because "Standing up from Prone as a Free Action" has been specifically addressed in the Tumble Skill (by the Epic Level Handbook, and, I believe, Complete Adventurer) with a ridiculously high DC. Just because you've got ranks in Tumble doesn't mean you can use it to stand up from prone without taking the Move Action. You're getting pretty far away from the rules, guy.
 

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