D&D General Dark Sun as a Hopepunk Setting

I thought the movie was funny. I don't think satires like it solve any actual problems in society, but I think the main thing it was making fun of was the culture of the mid-2000s (our obsession with celebrities, our pop culture, our politicians, etc). I agree that in the premise of it, there is some stereotyping, and the veers into eugenics (I think that last bit is quite unintentional though).
Well, the main point, “stupid people have babies too often and smart people don’t have babies enough,” is fundamentally eugenicist. I don’t think the writers consciously intended to tell a eugenicist story, but I do think they believe its central thesis, they just probably didn’t think about the fact that that’s a eugenicist belief. That’s a big problem in the US, we have a lot of eugenicist beliefs woven into our culture, and people don’t really think about it consciously. One of the reasons we should be doing what we can to teach better critical analysis skills.
But I don't think the point of the movie is it thinks lower class people are stupid though. They were making fun of things like dudebro culture, the rise of UFC, the way music was emphasizing material wealth, etc
Well, the movie doesn’t think anything, it’s not a conscious actor. But it does say things, and what it says is “there are too many stupid people and that’s bad.”And the way it shows stupidity is mostly through classist stereotypes. Again, I don’t think the writers consciously think lesser of lower-class people. I just think they uncritically used existing cultural signifiers to represent the idea of stupidity, and that those cultural signifiers happen to associate stupidity with lower economic status.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Well, the main point, “stupid people have babies too often and smart people don’t have babies enough,” is fundamentally eugenicist. I don’t think the writers consciously intended to tell a eugenicist story, but I do think they believe its central thesis, they just probably didn’t think about the fact that that’s a eugenicist belief. That’s a big problem in the US, we have a lot of eugenicist beliefs woven into our culture, and people don’t really think about it consciously. One of the reasons we should be doing what we can to teach better critical analysis skills.

Well, the movie doesn’t think anything, it’s not a conscious actor. But it does say things, and what it says is “there are too many stupid people and that’s bad.”And the way it shows stupidity is mostly through classist stereotypes. Again, I don’t think the writers consciously think lesser of lower-class people. I just think they uncritically used existing cultural signifiers to represent the idea of stupidity, and that those cultural signifiers happen to associate stupidity with lower economic status.

I understand why you are reading it this way, and if this were a media studies class, surely that would be the take-home. I just don't think that is what most people get from the movie, and I don't think the writer was shooting for that. And while there are classiest stereotypes, many of the idiots in the film are judges, doctors, politicians, etc. I think the chief thing they were mocking was American culture during that period.

Again though I don't think it really mattered. It is a funny movie, and it is maybe both cathartic for people who feel frustrated by society and a useful point of reference in conversations, but I don't think it really moved the dial in terms of culture.

I do agree with you about Eugenics in the US. And I think it is a very important moral issue. But I think we can't get into that without getting into real world politics
 

For the record, I don't consider Idiocracy a great movie or a great satire. I think it is funny. Films like Doctor Strangelove, Life of Brian or Robocop are more my cup of tea when it comes to satire.
 

I understand why you are reading it this way, and if this were a media studies class, surely that would be the take-home. I just don't think that is what most people get from the movie, and I don't think the writer was shooting for that.
I don’t really care what the writers were shooting for, I care what is actually expressed by the movie they made. Like, there’s a reason we teach this stuff in media studies classes - it’s not an exercise purely for its own sake, it’s to teach how to recognize what media is actually saying, even when that message is not direct or intended. Because media affects people. Are people watching the movie and walking away thinking, “let’s sterilize all the poor people!” no, I don’t think so. But, they do walk away thinking “that movie accurately expressed a frustration I have with modern society,” and joke about it having been prophetic or a documentary because of that.

You agree with me that American culture has a problem with uncritical acceptance of Eugenicist ideas. How do you think those ideas spread? This is it. People “turn their brains off” to enjoy a funny movie, and walk away with an uncritical emotional attachment to the ideas it expressed. Whether those ideas were put there intentionally by the authors or not, the effect is the same. Actually, it’s more pernicious than if those ideas had been put there intentionally, because people would be more likely to consciously notice and reject them if they had been expressed with direct intent.
 

I don’t really care what the writers were shooting for, I care what is actually expressed by the movie they made. Like, there’s a reason we teach this stuff in media studies classes - it’s not an exercise purely for its own sake, it’s to teach how to recognize what media is actually saying, even when that message is not direct or intended. Because media affects people. Are people watching the movie and walking away thinking, “let’s sterilize all the poor people!” no, I don’t think so. But, they do walk away thinking “that movie accurately expressed a frustration I have with modern society,” and joke about it having been prophetic or a documentary because of that.


The issue is I don't think the movie is actually affecting people in this way. It is stupid to think it was prophetic but they don't think it was prophetic because of eugenics. They think it was prophetic because they think the culture has been dumbing down. Again it was mocking mid-2000s culture, not advocating for eugenics. I've taken media studies courses and I've found them to be very cloistered in their own lenses
 

People “turn their brains off” to enjoy a funny movie, and walk away with an uncritical emotional attachment to the ideas it expressed
And some people 'turn their brain off' to enjoy a movie (whether it's funny or thought-provoking in some way) before turning it back on to critique it afterwards. They'll look at each facet of the plot and nitpick it till they're satisfied that they understood what the movie was all about. Or they'll nitpick it for flaws that don't make any sense but are there just to further the plot along.
 

You agree with me that American culture has a problem with uncritical acceptance of Eugenicist ideas. How do you think those ideas spread? This is it. People “turn their brains off” to enjoy a funny movie, and walk away with an uncritical emotional attachment to the ideas it expressed. Whether those ideas were put there intentionally by the authors or not, the effect is the same. Actually, it’s more pernicious than if those ideas had been put there intentionally, because people would be more likely to consciously notice and reject them if they had been expressed with direct intent.

I don't think this is where it is coming from in the culture but I also don't think we can get into the topic of Eugenics here. I would just say I think that sort of evil is a lot less esoteric and hidden in my view
 

The issue is I don't think the movie is actually affecting people in this way. It is stupid to think it was prophetic but they don't think it was prophetic because of eugenics. They think it was prophetic because they think the culture has been dumbing down.
Right, but why does the movie say the culture has been dumbing down? Because there’s too much of the dumb genes and not enough of the smart genes being passed down. People don’t necessarily see that and think “eugenics,” but that’s the problem. They should, because that’s a eugenicist belief.
Again it was mocking mid-2000s culture, not advocating for eugenics.
It doesn’t have to have been advocating for eugenics for people to walk away from it uncritically accepting eugenicist thought processes.
 

Right, but why does the movie say the culture has been dumbing down? Because there’s too much of the dumb genes and not enough of the smart genes being passed down. People don’t necessarily see that and think “eugenics,” but that’s the problem. They should, because that’s a eugenicist belief.

I get that. I said that it is there in the initial premise. I just don't think that is the focus and it isn't why the jokes about the culture begin dumb resonated. It was the initial explanation, and most people didn't think much about that until they thought about it later.


It doesn’t have to have been advocating for eugenics for people to walk away from it uncritically accepting eugenicist thought processes.

I don't think people walked away with it uncritically accepting eugenics. I think they came away agreeing with the premise that the culture had become dumb, and I think they probably found some of the specific things they were poking fun at amusing. I find this attitude towards media very paternalistic
 

I get that. I said that it is there in the initial premise. I just don't think that is the focus and it isn't why the jokes about the culture begin dumb resonated.
It doesn’t matter if that’s why the jokes resonated. That the jokes resonated, and the jokes also happen to be fundamentally eugenicist, is contributing to the problem of eugenicist ideas being accepted within US culture.
It was the initial explanation, and most people didn't think much about that until they thought about it later.
Right, and that’s the problem. Not thinking much about it is what makes it pernicious. People should think about it, because if they did, most of them probably wouldn’t be so accepting of it.
I don't think people walked away with it uncritically accepting eugenics. I think they came away agreeing with the premise that the culture had become dumb, and I think they probably found some of the specific things they were poking fun at amusing
They walked away agreeing with the premise, yes. And the premise is eugenicist. If they thought about that, they might have walked away thinking “that was pretty funny, but I disagree with its premise,” because most of them consciously believe eugenics is bad. But, they didn’t do that.
 

Trending content

Remove ads

Top