Tumble too powerful?

[Ahnehnois]

Actually, what I stated I wanted to avoid was the full sequence attack. I'm sure you've realized when playing 3.5 at mid-high levels that a single melee attack is unlikely to cause instant death, but a full round attack easily can. It's pretty standard tactics to avoid that at all costs, and being able to do it automatically is very often very nice.

I understand that. But realistically, this tactic will only buy you one round, as any remotely intelligent large creature with a small opponent will grapple them, and tumbling away does not prevent them from doing that. You can't tumble while you're grappled. I agree that avoiding full attacks is imperative, but a fly spell or the like is far more useful in achieving that.

 

[Jacob]

The way we decided if Tumble in those 3.5 days was too easy was not by what the PCs could do. It was decided to be too easy when enemies tumbled past the front line of Fighters and attacked and nearly killed the poor Wizard in a round. They thought it was too easy for bad guys to move around and attack weaker party members while ignoring the more powerful combat focused characters.

I've yet to do this to my PCs, and know a few monsters to take advantage of this. Thank you.

Given that Tumble is trained skill that only the Bard, Monk and Rogue can take (I know there are non-core classes that have it, whatever), the DC is fine. We're talking about classes that are under-equipped in some fashion, be it lower HP, potential weapon use, and armor. Tumble gives them the ability to balance what they don't have. And as long as we are concerned about low DCs, how about we look at the Epic usages for the skill?

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Uh, guys? In what world is dodging AoOs overpowered? Everyone already has five-foot steps. It's not hard to get 10' on those "five-foot" steps, too, with magic items. And that's ignoring free movement like Anklets of Translocation. Tumble is hardly an impressive improvement.

On the subject of DC, it's not really bad when you keep perspective. (I was going to link to a relatively well-known page pointing out that people are really level four or five at the max, but I can't link.)

Finally, you're forgetting how easy it can be to manipulate movement. I mean, even a knight can pretty much shut down tumbling, and, well, it's the Knight. And if you really, really need to kill something that's moving, just ready an action.

I like the idea of adding the opponent's BAB to the base DC of 15. It will work both ways though and the monsters will have to abide by it as well.

I'm sorry, but that's a terrible idea. Look at animals, just for example. They're hardly the most skilled or trained fighters, but RHD gives them comparatively large BAB.

This gets even worse as we get to higher level, because many monsters have massively inflated hit dice just to be even remotely threatening. So, basically, you're putting arbitrary restrictions on a simple skill that's largely unnecessary. It's punishing people who don't want to fork over 1400gp, and can be easily avoided.

Even at low levels, when you might only have a 50-50 chance to avoid being hit, it's a low-cost method to avoid damage a good amount of the time!

And that's a problem? Are you saying that rocket tag is great game design?

Wizards have enough skill points that a couple every other level is a good investment.

No, no it really isn't. UMD, Spellcraft, Concentration, Knowledges, and prereqs are all much, much better investments than something you really shouldn't need, especially on a wizard, who really should never get hit if they're being competent.

I like the idea of adding the opponent's BAB to the base DC of 15. It will work both ways though and the monsters will have to abide by it as well.

It's a terrible idea, as outlined above, and what monsters will actually care?

The way we decided if Tumble in those 3.5 days was too easy was not by what the PCs could do. It was decided to be too easy when enemies tumbled past the front line of Fighters and attacked and nearly killed the poor Wizard in a round.

How? No, seriously, how? Miss chances, simple, long duration buffs, there's little reason a wizard should get hit, even in core.

Also, what was the wizard doing so close to the enemies if he was that fragile?

They thought it was too easy for bad guys to move around and attack weaker party members while ignoring the more powerful combat focused characters.

And then what's stopping them from just eating an AoO or five-footing it? It's not like most monsters don't have HP to burn, and there's no downside unless they're already low on health. If they're intelligent creatures, why not use magic items? Or, in other words, protecting people doesn't really work in 3.5, news at 11.

 

[Celebrim]

Tumble too powerful?

There are two ways to respond to this, and both are equally valid.

First, examining Tumble I decided that this was the way all skills in the game should work. Tumble provides a significant advantage to the player that has ranks in it. It is useful in many common situations, and equally it provides for strategies which rely on the use of the skill. It is not merely a passive skill that comes up only when the DM calls for it. So the real problem is not that Tumble is too powerful, but that other skills are too weak. With this in mind, I made not only Tumble MORE powerful and diverse in application, but increased the capabilities of many other skills and added similarly powerful skills as well.

Secondly, equally importantly, static absolute numbers have little place in an RPG. While they are convenient, they almost always run into problems in the long run because they really don't assess difficulty. For example as other's have noted, Tumble makes it difficult as written for players to use cooperative tactics to protect their ranged combatants. As such, while I don't consider tumble too powerful, I do consider it problematic. Therefore, I rewrote the DC to evade an AOO to be 15 + BAB of the attacking creature.

 

[Crothian]

How? No, seriously, how? Miss chances, simple, long duration buffs, there's little reason a wizard should get hit, even in core.

Also, what was the wizard doing so close to the enemies if he was that fragile?

It is very easy. Not every Wizard has every spell and the ability to cast everything at the right time. Also, in close quarters like dungeons usually are a Wizard has to be close to the action or else they are useless. Sure, Wizards are powerful and have the ability to trump anything, but they are not always in the perfect place with the perfect spells to handle everything.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

It is very easy. Not every Wizard has every spell and the ability to cast everything at the right time.

Uh, yes they do.

At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast

Also, in close quarters like dungeons usually are a Wizard has to be close to the action or else they are useless.

They have plenty of AoEs. In fact, all of their good spells can be cast with plenty of room between them and the enemy and with no line of site, and that's ignoring how easy it is for wizards, or anyone, really, to break LoS.

Sure, Wizards are powerful and have the ability to trump anything, but they are not always in the perfect place

They should be.

with the perfect spells to handle everything.

Again, even if they were never allowed in a town, never met another wizard, never got a scroll, and weren't allowed to research, they'd still have access to all the spells they'd need.

 

[Crothian]

Uh, yes they do.
They have plenty of AoEs. In fact, all of their good spells can be cast with plenty of room between them and the enemy and with no line of site, and that's ignoring how easy it is for wizards, or anyone, really, to break LoS.
They should be.
Again, even if they were never allowed in a town, never met another wizard, never got a scroll, and weren't allowed to research, they'd still have access to all the spells they'd need.

Just saying no doesn't really prove anything. I know how a Wizard works, I understand they get two spells per level at the least. But that doesn't guarantee they will have exactly what they need when they need. Spells get cast and Wizards run out of spells. Wizards players get thrown out of the group when they cast all those AoE spells that hit the other PCs. Without line of sight they have no idea what if anything is around the corner. I can see a Wizard being a lot more effective if they get to meta game and if a DM allows them never get attacked. It doesn't work that way in our games. The players and their characters get challenged. If your style is different and the Wizards never get attacked or have to fear for their lives then awesome. But this conversation has nothing to do with tumbling.

 

[Cyclone_Joker]

Just saying no doesn't really prove anything.

Except yes it does.

I know how a Wizard works, I understand they get two spells per level at the least. But that doesn't guarantee they will have exactly what they need when they need.

Yes it really does. They can get all the spells they really need at the earliest they can get them.

Spells get cast and Wizards run out of spells.

At one, MAYBE two spell per encounter, I'd love to know how many encounters you have during the adventuring day.

Wizards players get thrown out of the group when they cast all those AoE spells that hit the other PCs.

And I'm struggling to know how incompetent your fellow players must be if they're intentionally in the area of an AoE, especially considering wizards should always go first.

Without line of sight they have no idea what if anything is around the corner.

Talking is a free action.

I can see a Wizard being a lot more effective if they get to meta game

If you believe using spells intelligently is metagaming, I think you need to work on your definition.

and if a DM allows them never get attacked.

If a wizard gets attacked, he's doing it wrong.

It doesn't work that way in our games.

Then either your wizards do not play up to their superhuman intelligence or there's a whole bunch of fiat going on there.

The players and their characters get challenged.

How do you challenge both a wizard and the rest of the party, assuming not everyone in the party is a full-caster?

If your style is different and the Wizards never get attacked

The wizards never get hit. There's a difference.

or have to fear for their lives then awesome.

I'd love to know how you'd make a wizard fear for its life by something not a full caster. I'm genuinely curious.

But this conversation has nothing to do with tumbling.

Meh. You brought it up.

 

[sheadunne]

It's not really an opposed check. It's a check to determine if the tumbler can move without dropping his guard enough to allow an attack of opportunity. As such, it can easily seen to be all about him, not his target's ability to fight.

Pretty much sums it all up.

 

[Ahnehnois]

It is not merely a passive skill that comes up only when the DM calls for it. So the real problem is not that Tumble is too powerful, but that other skills are too weak.

I don't really see this. A DM can certainly create scenarios in which Tumble is not particularly valuable, even though it is the player's choice to actually use it. And I'm not aware of any skills for which this is not the case. I'm not aware of any examples that I would contrast with Tumble as being a passive versus an active skill.