"Tumbling" through threatened spaces

[Wiseblood]

[MENTION=35909]StreamOfTheSky[/MENTION] You have convinced me. Sometimes I take my opinion as fact. I beg your pardon.

I would love to see the resplitting of skills such as spot and listen but I'll save that for another thread.

 

[Squire James]

Using the Reflex modifier to resist Tumble checks is not a bad idea. Perhaps set the DC at 10+ Reflex modifier to tumble by something, and 20+ Reflex modifier to tumble through it (the latter is supposed to be pretty tough!). I suppose I should specify some exceptions, like Gelatinous Cubes - trying to tumble through them should be a *very* bad idea!

 

[theedj]

I like setting the DC at 10 + (Opponent's reflex save) + (Opponent's bonuses to initiative from things like improved init) + (Opponent's size modifier). You can slide the 10 upwards as desired to make tumbling more challenging if it is found that this DC is too easy to beat.

IMO, getting an AoO against a nimble tumbling opponent is not a function of being strong and having a lot of HD, but is a matter of reacting in time (reflex save) and being able to act swiftly enough to aim a blow where a creature will be rather than where it was a moment ago (initiative). Larger creatures get a bonus because their attack covers a larger area, so they need not be as precise; you can tumble all you want but if a giant is quick enough and squashes a 10'x10' area they're much less likely to miss you. I might even considering doubling the size bonus in my house rules now that I think about it...

That's who takes improved initiative!

 

[SnowleopardVK]

Had this come up in a recent game. 5 PCs against one opponent who was standing just inside a doorframe at the entrance to a building (in other words it had 3 squares adjacent to it). The three PCs that actually stood some chance in melee combat took the front lines, and the sorcerer was still able to magic missile from behind, but the fifth (one of the rogues) was useless. (A downpour was wreaking havoc with her bow.)

The only way she could have helped would be tumbling past the opponent to flank for herself and the other rogue, but when we looked up the tumble rules we realized that she was almost certainly going to fail any attempt (and that's despite decent DEX, low armor check penalty, and acrobatics being a class skill). So she just sat around doing nothing.

The DM after the battle told us what the opponent's CMD was and we did a little math and found that the only way for her to possibly succeed (had she tried it) would have been if she had rolled nat 20 and the DM had granted her an auto-success. And she's the most acrobatic character on the team, meaning it's a completely pointless strategy for all of us and doomed to failure against all but the weakest opponents.

 

[concerro]

I like the fact that the flat 15 DC is gone, but huge and larger monster are really hard to get past, much less through their squares, and they don't even normally get all of the deflection bonuses, and other things that PC's get. Maybe it should have been CMB + X to tumble past someone and CMB +X+Y to get past someone. I have no idea what X and Y should be. Having to choose though I would get rid of that flat 15. Some level 2 nobody should not be tumbling around an epic level melee type.

 

[Tovec]

I like the fact that the flat 15 DC is gone, but huge and larger monster are really hard to get past, much less through their squares, and they don't even normally get all of the deflection bonuses, and other things that PC's get. Maybe it should have been CMB + X to tumble past someone and CMB +X+Y to get past someone. I have no idea what X and Y should be. Having to choose though I would get rid of that flat 15. Some level 2 nobody should not be tumbling around an epic level melee type.

The main issue I see with this is that it can be really swingy and scale too drastically. Maybe not CMB and instead just BAB + 15 for threatened square and BAB + 20/25 for through square. It scales it a little bit better, not reliant on STR to catch someone and keeps it closer to a base DC that it was in 3.5.