Turn AND Rebuke?

[Luthien Greyspear]

Okay, I'm looking at the Death Delver from Heroes of Horror, which is a non-aligned class that gives you the ability to rebuke undead. Although it does say that you rebuke undead "like an evil cleric", it does not say that you are specifically channeling negative energy. Similarly, it later says that the Death Delver's rebuke ability stacks with any previous ability to rebuke, but it doesn't say that it replaces or supercedes any ability to turn the undead.

Here's my question for the rules gurus around here: Is it possible for a character to be able to both turn AND rebuke undead? Does this class supercede the normal rules?

Note: I would not assume that any benefits from the Extra Turning feat to apply to both abilities at the same time. Rather, I would treat it like Weapon or Spell Focus, applying only to the specific ability it was chosen for.

 

[werk]

A neutral cleric of a neutral deity must choose whether his turning ability functions as that of a good cleric or an evil cleric. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

I'd say that is pretty clear with regard to having both turn and rebuke. It's from heroes of horror, maybe they are assuming you are evil or have choosen rebuke.

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

I'd say that is pretty clear with regard to having both turn and rebuke. It's from heroes of horror, maybe they are assuming you are evil or have choosen rebuke.

Yes, but the Death Delver doesn't draw his rebuke ability from a deity. He is able to influence the undead because of his own near-death experience, and his subsequent investigation of that period of his life. There is no religious connection or mandate for his rebuke, nor is there anything in the class description that mentions religion, gods, or the channeling of negative energy.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, but the Death Delver doesn't draw his rebuke ability from a deity. He is able to influence the undead because of his own near-death experience, and his subsequent investigation of that period of his life. There is no religious connection or mandate for his rebuke, nor is there anything in the class description that mentions religion, gods, or the channeling of negative energy.

You mean, except from the part that you rebuke undead "like an evil cleric" and that clerics rebuke undead "by channeling the power of his faith through his holy (or unholy) symbol"?

Regardless, keep in mind that "Even if a cleric is neutral, channeling positive energy is a good act and channeling negative energy is evil."

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

Hmm. It seems to me the problem here is one of terminology. The class (even in the role-playing notes that follow the mechanics) clearly is not centered around any sort of evil act or evil intentions, merely around the life-experience of a near-death experience. The character is approaching the undead with a "Hey, I know what you're going through, and it's gonna be okay" kind of perspective.

I think they should have called the ability "Negotiator with the Dead" or something like that, and clarified that it has the same effect as rebuking the undead, but that it doesn't draw upon the negative material plane. That would prevent this kind of semantics vs. flavor kind of argument.

Because I think a good cleric that really sympathized with the dead and had them work off their curse by rebuilding the temple that they had been trying to destroy would be cool...

 

[Infiniti2000]

The semantics vs. flavor argument is exactly your question, though.

If it's only a question of flavor, then no one can offer a rules-based answer. Of course, maybe that's what you're looking for but it's clear. If it's a question of semantics (i.e. rules), then I think it's relatively provable that channeling positive energy == good and channeling negative energy == evil and a cleric can't be both unless Neutral. So, let's assume your cleric is Good, then you can't use this ability per the rules because channeling negative energy is bad, mkay? (i.e. you could use it but the alignment repercussion would eventually get you down.) If your cleric is Neutral, then he could use this and that's a slightly different question but with no clear resolution. I'd personally say that rebuking undead does not stack with turning, but that the cleric could now either turn or rebuke, his choice, but the number of times per day is limited to 3 + CHa modifier + extra turning feats. IT would not get a separate 'pool' for turning and rebuking.

 

[werk]

I don't have the book yet...maybe there is something in the chapter intro that sets the tone for the class?

 

[Luthien Greyspear]

There's no intro to the section on prestige classes, but there is one for the class itself:

"The mystery of death and dying is one that occupies the attention of almost every race, regardless of that race's behaviors and beliefs. The death delver is that rare individual who, rather than fearing and avoiding death, delves as deeply into its mysteriesas he can, to better understand and eventually gain some small power over it. Unlike necromancers, and other classes associated with death magic, the focus of a death delver's studies -- or, more accurately, his journey -- is much more deeply personal. Rather than concentrating on using death and death magic to affect the outside world, a death delver seeks to attune himself to the ebb and flow of death itself, and thereby draw strength from his understanding and indomitable courage in the face of it." (All from Heroes of Horror, page 93; emphasis mine)

The above implies no connection with any negative energy source or evil deity. In fact, the class description itself does not have any notation that the ability to rebuke undead is (for the delver) an exceptional or supernatural ability. While this is obviously an oversight (which is repeated several times throughout the book), it does provide a possible loophole. If this is an exceptional ability (born of an understanding of death and natural skill) rather than supernatural (My god says destroy them!), then technically, there is no negative energy being used. Hence, not the same as an evil cleric rebuking the undead.

 

[werk]

Rather than concentrating on using death and death magic to affect the outside world, a death delver seeks to attune himself to the ebb and flow of death itself, and thereby draw strength from his understanding and indomitable courage in the face of it[/B]." (All from Heroes of Horror, page 93; emphasis mine)

Just sounds like a different description of using negative energy to me.

neg energy = death just as positive energy = life.
neg energy = evil (debatable)

I guess I don't see the problem since the class is described as turning undead like an evil cleric and the cleric rules are fairly explicit that you would not get both. But, as always, ask your DM (some DMs are crazy!).

 

[Shadeus]

I noticed this as well. It looks to me like it is missing the requirement that they can rebuke undead or maybe an evil alignment. It's definitely a loophole that I couldn't figure out, although I really liked the PrC myself.