D&D 4E Turning 4e Cosmology into the Great Wheel

Shemeska

Adventurer
- All divine dominions are connected, instead of floating separatedly.

What do you mean by connected? The outer planes of the Great Wheel weren't connected really, since the wheel was just a relational model to show metaphysical closeness of the planes, not actual physical borders or connections.

- Below everything (or inside everything, the sages argue about these semantics), is the Abyss, draining away to the shard of entropy known as the Negative Plane.

This however is a problem, since it implies chaos = entropic destruction, and it also implies that the negative energy plane is in and of itself, evil, which it has never been in D&D.

Honestly I think it best to keep the Great Wheel and the 4e cosmology as distinct things without trying to muddy them together.
 

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Shemeska

Adventurer
Still, at the very least, the Elemental Chaos is way better than the old Elemental Planes. The former is exciting and has literary precedent, the latter is fairly dull and nonsensical.

The whole meme of the 4e planes being based somehow on "literary precedent" and the Great Wheel planes not, needs to die. Specific to what you said above, the classic D&D elemental planes (and the ethereal plane between them and the Material) are based on the classical pre-Socratic greek elements, while the elemental chaos is IMO a confused and cliche pastiche of Limbo and the Elemental planes of the Great Wheel without any specific literary inspiration.

There are vague mythological notions of reality rising up out of an original chaos, and that's what I used for Pathfinder's CN Maelstrom (specifically riffing off of the Ogdoad of Hermopolis from Egyptian mythology), but there's nothing specific in the 4e cosmology that derives beyond the most vague notion from any of that, versus the use of the classical elements for the elemental planes of the Great Wheel.
 
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M.L. Martin

Adventurer
Re-imagining Ravenloft as existing in the Shadowfell really worked for me, though I can bet it offends serious Ravenloft fans.

This serious Ravenloft fan (over 20 years, two DRAGON articles and subtle influences on 3rd Edition Ravenloft to my credit :) ) thinks it both does and does not work. It's fine for the 'Weekend in Hell' model and for what Ravenloft is by night, but it's a bit too overly supernatural and gloomy for the daylight hours and long-term campaigning. If WotC wants to keep it as scattered domains of dread for adventures, that's fine, but if it's supposed to be a full setting, IMO it works better as a standalone world or demiplane with close ties to the Shadowfell and whose Feywild is even a bit shadowy. (Ravenloft made a major incorporation of the fey in its late 2E days, and a lot of fans would be loathe to give up our own special take on them, IMO. :) )
 

TwinBahamut

First Post
The whole meme of the 4e planes being based somehow on "literary precedent" and the Great Wheel planes not, needs to die. Specific to what you said above, the classic D&D elemental planes (and the ethereal plane between them and the Material) are based on the classical pre-Socratic greek elements, while the elemental chaos is IMO a confused and cliche pastiche of Limbo and the Elemental planes of the Great Wheel without any specific literary inspiration.
Actually, you're dead wrong on this.

In the cosmology of Milton's Paradise Lost, Heaven, Earth, and Hell are all floating within a vast realm of matter without form or order called Chaos. This is supposedly the realm of pure physicality that God retracted from in order to create Heaven. The ruler of this realm, Chaos, the "Anarch of Old" is presented as a ruler who keeps a court filled filled with powerful beings (one name among his courtiers is Orcus), and exists primarily to make Lucifer realize how minor and trivial a thorn in the side of God he really is. It is also described that Chaos is a tumultuous realm where Lucifer is battered by unpredictable flames, ice, lightning, and earth as he attempts to pass through it.

Sounds like the Elemental Chaos to me. It may not be a widespread cosmology, but it is nonetheless literary precedent.

Edit: Also, I may as well mention that Paradise Lost was the origin of the names Limbo and Pandemonium for planes of the Great Wheel (though both are different from how they appear in Milton's work), so you can't very well reject it as a possible bit of inspiration for D&D. :)

Also, this quote from an article on Wikipedia might be relevant: "Ovid (1st century BC), in his Metamorphoses, described Chaos as 'a rude and undeveloped mass, that nothing made except a ponderous weight; and all discordant elements confused, were there congested in a shapeless heap.'"

There are vague mythological notions of reality rising up out of an original chaos, and that's what I used for Pathfinder's CN Maelstrom (specifically riffing off of the Ogdoad of Hermopolis from Egyptian mythology), but there's nothing specific in the 4e cosmology that derives beyond the most vague notion from any of that, versus the use of the classical elements for the elemental planes of the Great Wheel.
Honestly, I don't think the idea that, just because you want to use the four elements that they have to be represented in something so bizarre as four pure planes. I mean, the idea of wells of elements show up (like in Norse mythology), but those always lead to the ideas of those elements spreading out and mixing in order to create something (as in how the flames of Muspelheim and ice of Nifleheim spread and mixed within the vast void of Ginnungagap). The idea of giant realms purely dedicated to a set of elements is just... strange.

I have no idea why pure planes are at all necessary, especially since they're about the only place in D&D where the four classical elements are actually relevant. It is not like the game's fluff and mechanics are exactly in love with them (like some games I've seen). You could change the list of main cosmological elements and it wouldn't impact the mechanics of the game or any of its major settings in the slightest, or just drop the elemental planes entirely without issue. Also, they're boring as heck, so any alternative that isn't boring helps a lot (and yes, I know you've run a campaign that made adventures out of places like the Deep Ethereal, but that doesn't change my opinion in the slightest).
 
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Jeff Carlsen

Adventurer
This serious Ravenloft fan (over 20 years, two DRAGON articles and subtle influences on 3rd Edition Ravenloft to my credit :) ) thinks it both does and does not work. It's fine for the 'Weekend in Hell' model and for what Ravenloft is by night, but it's a bit too overly supernatural and gloomy for the daylight hours and long-term campaigning. If WotC wants to keep it as scattered domains of dread for adventures, that's fine, but if it's supposed to be a full setting, IMO it works better as a standalone world or demiplane with close ties to the Shadowfell and whose Feywild is even a bit shadowy. (Ravenloft made a major incorporation of the fey in its late 2E days, and a lot of fans would be loathe to give up our own special take on them, IMO. :) )


I have just a couple of quick thoughts on this. First, the big mistake of the Shadowfell as it exists now is that it's just a place of gloom. The Feywild is interesting because it's a place of exaggerated emotions containing both good and evil. It's a hyper world.

My ideal for the Realm of Shadow would actually look a lot more like the full Ravenloft setting. Not monothematic gloom, but a realm of subtle horrors.

Coincidentally, Ravenloft is a setting that I wouldn't mind the occasional adventure arc in, but has little appeal to me for a full campaign. But Ravenloft is a prison. You don't just dip into it for a few sessions.

So, for me, replacing the Shadowfell with Ravenloft is perfect.
 
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TwinBahamut

First Post
I'd like the Shadowfell a lot more if they actually embraced the idea of it being a true land of the dead, rather than just a land of scary dark dead things. I suppose a big part of the problem is that D&D has never established a proper distinction between the dead and the undead, or fleshed out the process of death and the entities involved (like grim Reaper equivalents). Well, it used to have "petitioners" before 4E, but that was a terrible implementation of the afterlife. I suppose they'd need to create a non-terrible implementation of the afterlife in order to make the Shadowfell interesting.
 

Shemeska

Adventurer
Also, they're boring as heck, so any alternative that isn't boring helps a lot (and yes, I know you've run a campaign that made adventures out of places like the Deep Ethereal, but that doesn't change my opinion in the slightest).

Go and compare the material from 2e Planescape's "The Inner Planes" to the corresponding 4e material on the same areas. The Great Wheel material is more detailed, with generally more options and things to explore. I don't know where you're getting the notion that the pre-4e material was boring, especially when 4e recycles so many locations from there to flesh out its own elemental chaos and elsewhere.

And yes, I've run PCs through every single one of the positive touched quasi-elemental planes and also through quasielemental vaccuum and ash. They had quite a few memorable moments in the "antithesis of fun". :)
 
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Quickleaf

Legend
I am running a Planescape campaign using 4e rules and a few of the setting conceits that go with 4e, notably the parallel planes. For the most part I've replaced the Ethereal with The Feywild (which leads to outer planar realms like Arvandor, Tir Na Og, or the Wild Hunt) and The Shadowfell (which leads to Niflheim and other locations in the Gray Waste, as well as "petitioner processing centers" like the Palace of Judgment). So far so good.

I pretty much agree with [MENTION=11697]Shemeska[/MENTION] about the great playability of the 2e planes, though in regards to the Ethereal plane I never ran adventures there and never bought the book. So I've been happy to swap it out for Faerie & Shadow.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Honestly, I'm much rather see an effort by WotC to disassociate the game from any particular planar flavor rather than make another planar system hard-coded into the rules and core flavor text. It would be more interesting to see wildly different alternate cosmologies or pieces of cosmologies that can be fit together, rather than having just one.

Still, at the very least, the Elemental Chaos is way better than the old Elemental Planes. The former is exciting and has literary precedent, the latter is fairly dull and nonsensical. Also, the less obsessing there is done over demons, devils, and positive and negative energy, the better.

This...more or less.

Say it with me people... MODULAR.

OPTIONS.

BUILD YOUR OWN.

There should be NO "set cosmology" but a couple of pages of general descriptions for each plane and examples of how your might put them together...2 or 3 easy to just pull and plug for those who don't want/cant't be bothered to make it themselves, but the "default" should be build your own!

"Don't get your Elemental Chaos on my Elemental Planes." Done.

"You got devils in my demon realms!" Done.

"I don't want any devils or demons at all!" Done.

"Abyss this." Done.

"I want a Heaven, and Astral/Ethereal/"middle"/Limbo place and a Hell...maybe 9 Hells...but I'll start with one and see how the campaign goes." Done.

"I just want 4 planes that each relate to a given cardinal element and the world only has 4 gods, 1 for each of those planes...and they are each, at once, the heaven and the hell for the people of the world with nice places and not-so-nice places within them. The god of the element you worship decides whether you get nice accommodations after you die or not...or get sent back so their planes don't get overcrowded." Done.

Outer planes, Inner planes, "Great Wheel", Positive and/or Negative energy planes, Fey/Faye/Fairy/Fairie Land/World/Wild/Realms, Shadowy Gloomy Gloom Shhhhpooooky Darkplace...that isn't actually part of the Fairyland...PARA-elementals, archons and angels...OH MY!

Yes and Yes. Done and Done. Have at it and make the perfect Cosmology for YOUR game.

Thank you. G'night.
--Steel Dragons
 

Klaus

First Post
What do you mean by connected? The outer planes of the Great Wheel weren't connected really, since the wheel was just a relational model to show metaphysical closeness of the planes, not actual physical borders or connections.



This however is a problem, since it implies chaos = entropic destruction, and it also implies that the negative energy plane is in and of itself, evil, which it has never been in D&D.

Honestly I think it best to keep the Great Wheel and the 4e cosmology as distinct things without trying to muddy them together.
"Connected" as in, there are direct portals linking one domain to the "next", and the presence of those portals led sages to construct the "wheel" model. In the current 4e cosmology, the astral domains were sundered and stand apart, so you have to rely on the Astral Sea to reach one of them.

The "vague" mentions of Chaos? How about Gaea springing forth from Chaos, then creating Ouranos and from him the Titans and the Gigantes (giants), who went on to rule over the world, until the gods rose up and defeated the Titans and Gigantes? That is almost exactly the creation myth of the 4e cosmology.

And the 4e Cosmology is perfectly suited for Dragonlance, with the Godshome on one pole and the Abyss at the other end.

The point is, the major difference between the 4e and Great Wheel cosmologies is the placement of the pieces, but you can easily use material from either one just by looking for the correlations.
 

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