Turning Undead variant

[Grayhawk]

Since before UA came out, some of us was discussing how to make the Turn Undead mechanic more d20-like. Some wanted it to be a Will save made by the undead vs a DC set by the turner, others (including me) wanted it to be a check of d20 +Cleric level +Cha modifier vs a DC set by the undead.

I crunched the numbers for some time, never quite getting the result I was looking for (should the turn DC be based on the undead's HD or Will save?, etc).

Now that UA has given us a mechanic (d20 +Cleric level +Cha modifier vs a DC of 10 +undead's HD +undead's Cha modifier +turn resistance), I'll settle for that, but I would still like to tinker with the turning results.

One of my main reasons for house ruling turning is to make it simpler in play.

As such, I won't include UA's turning results, that differ depending on how much you beat the DC and which adds complexity by given the turner a choice of actually turning the undead or merely halting it in place (or concentrate to halt in place, if succeeding by less than 5 on the turning check).

The standard results of Unaffected, Turned or Destroyed seem adequate to me.

To further simplify, instead of giving an arbitrary max on possible HD turned, how about letting the turner roll once for each type of undead, starting with the weakest, and continuing up through the ranks as long as he succeeds his check?

With no max on HD turned, this has the possibility of being very powerful, so some restrictions may be in order. What if turning was restricted to a 30 feet range and/or was a full round action?

Also, I'm thinking about letting turning be limited to 3 times per day, regardless of Cha modifier (it always annoyed me that a Paladin usually had more turn attempts in a day than a cleric). Please note, this variant is for a system without divine feats, so an excess of turning attempts are not needed to fuel such. The improved Turning feat could grant 2 more attempts per day.

I'd keep the rule about letting a succesful turn check destroy those turned if they have half or less HD than the turner. Also, I'd introduce a limit to what maximum HD creature a cleric can turn, being twice his level.

(Btw, I'm not sure if this was an oversight in UA, but letting the turn DC be based in part on an undead's Cha modifier makes skeletons and zombies very easy to turn with their Cha score of 1. For my variant, I'll change the formula to be '10 +undead's HD +undead's Cha modifier (if positive) +turn resistance'.)

Example of this variant in play:

A 5th level Cleric with a Cha of 12 have the following undead within his 30 feet range:

4 human Zombies. These have a turn DC of 12. The Cleric needs to roll a 6 to succeed, if he does they are destroyed and he may keep rolling to turn the

2 Ghouls. These have a turn DC of 15. The Cleric needs to roll a 9 to succeed, if he does they are destroyed and he may keep rolling to turn the

Ghast. It has turn DC of 19. The Cleric needs to roll a 13 to succeed, if he makes it he may keep rolling to turn the

Spectre. It has turn DC of 21. The Cleric needs to roll a 15 to succeed, if he makes it he may not keep rolling to turn the

Minotaur Zombie, which (with its 12 HD) is out of his turning range.


Do you think this mechanic would work?

 

[Mouseferatu]

The problem is, you're adding complexity in the name of simplicity.

I agree, the current turning mechanics feel a bit clunky, but they have the distinct avantage of being quick to arbitrate. One roll to turn, one roll for damage, some undead flee, some don't. Having to make a seperate roll for each type of undead in an encounter is going to slow things down enormously, and anything that makes the combat round take longer is to be avoided, IMO.

Here's something I've been thinking about, but I've never had the chance to play around with.

The cleric rolls d20 + cleric level + Cha modifier. As is in the core rules, that result determines the most poweful undead affected, as per table 8-9.

But, that exact same roll is also the total number of HD affected, rather than having a seperate damage roll.

For example, a 9th-level cleric rolls a 17 on his turn check. 17 means you can affect undead up to 2 HD higher than your level. So, he can turn up to a 9 HD undead, and he turns 17 total HD worth of undead.

The advantages to doing it this way, rather than by the book? Far faster, and more intuitive than rolling a second damage roll of 2d6 plus modifiers.

The disadvantages? It makes turning a lot more potent, since you can potentially turn a lot more HD-worth on a D20 + modifiers than on 2d6 + modifiers.

Solution? A cleric can only attempt to turn any specific undead creatures once per day. Any undead he fails to turn the first time, he cannot turn again until after his next "prayer time." If new undead join the battle, though, he can attempt to turn them.

So, you're more potent per turning attempt, but gain fewer per encounter.

Now, I should warn you. I have not playtested this. I haven't even sat down and really juggled the numbers. It's just an idea I had, and I thought I'd share. I don't think it's broken (or at least not by much), but I can't promise you that.

There is, BTW, a solid reason for keeping the "Max HD turned," even though it requires the use of a chart and isn't necessarily intuitive. It prevents a cleric from turning an astoundingly powerful creature with a lucky roll. If there were no cap on HD, a 1st-level cleric with decent Charisma could potentially turn a 16th-level lich. PCs should be able to accomplish amazing things, but that's simply too much.

 

[jerichothebard]

Since before UA came out, some of us was discussing how to make the Turn Undead mechanic more d20-like. Some wanted it to be a Will save made by the undead vs a DC set by the turner, others (including me) wanted it to be a check of d20 +Cleric level +Cha modifier vs a DC set by the undead.

I crunched the numbers for some time, never quite getting the result I was looking for (should the turn DC be based on the undead's HD or Will save?, etc).

Now that UA has given us a mechanic (d20 +Cleric level +Cha modifier vs a DC of 10 +undead's HD +undead's Cha modifier +turn resistance), I'll settle for that, but I would still like to tinker with the turning results.

I ran some numbers on the effectiveness of this method - here's the spreadsheet.

If my calculations are right, what I discovered is that, in the mid-levels, the UA method (labeled Crescent, after my campaign, in the doc) is slightly advantageous vs. mid-level undead.



Now, as to what the effects are, I am still working on that myself. I don't like the flee or ignore result. Arbitrarily fleeing seems really dumb to me.

I am thinking of making it something like magic circle vs. {alignment}. Any undead that makes it's save can enter, anyone that fails is repelled, anyone that fails critically (more than five) is turned to dust.

 

[Grayhawk]

jerichothebard, thanks for running those calculations. Without Excel I can't check it out, though. If you come up with a more fitting result of a turning than the undead fleeing, let me know!

Mouseferatu, thanks for looking this over

The problem is, you're adding complexity in the name of simplicity.

I agree, the current turning mechanics feel a bit clunky, but they have the distinct avantage of being quick to arbitrate. One roll to turn, one roll for damage, some undead flee, some don't. Having to make a seperate roll for each type of undead in an encounter is going to slow things down enormously, and anything that makes the combat round take longer is to be avoided, IMO.

I both agree and disagree with this. While my proposed mechanic may seem somewhat complicated at first read through, I'm pretty confident it would be pretty simple in play. Of course, it would be a good idea to figure out the various undead's turn DC before hand (like suggested in UA).

Now, I'll grant that this mechanic has a possibility of requiring more rolls than the core turning does, but how often are your undead opponents comprised of more than 2 or 3 different types?

You may even have big undead battles with many different undead types, but how many of these will be cramping together in the 30 feet radius I've reduced the turning range to?

Compared to the (to me) clunky and unintuitive turning of the core rules, with it's table to have to look up every time, my way will propably see turning checks resolved faster.

Besides, I feel that a turning check that smacks more of an attack roll will be much more satisfying to the Cleric's player, than the arbitrary check he currently makes.

And since each turning check not only dictates whether that particular undead type is turned but also dictates whether the Cleric may continue rolling for the tougher undead within range, I can see a lot of tension riding on these rolls. And as such, I don't mind a couple of them per turning attempt.

And since the number of turnings per day have been reduced to 3, it'll even happen less often.

Here's something I've been thinking about, but I've never had the chance to play around with.

The cleric rolls d20 + cleric level + Cha modifier. As is in the core rules, that result determines the most poweful undead affected, as per table 8-9.

But, that exact same roll is also the total number of HD affected, rather than having a seperate damage roll.

This would obviously eliminate a roll, but as I much prefer a 'd20 +level +Cha vs a set DC' kind of mechanic, it's not for me. Besides, you'd still need to look up that table to get your result.

There is, BTW, a solid reason for keeping the "Max HD turned," even though it requires the use of a chart and isn't necessarily intuitive. It prevents a cleric from turning an astoundingly powerful creature with a lucky roll. If there were no cap on HD, a 1st-level cleric with decent Charisma could potentially turn a 16th-level lich. PCs should be able to accomplish amazing things, but that's simply too much.

I agree. This is why I included the part about you not being able to turn any single undead with more HD than twice your level (remember to add an undead's turn resistance when making this comparison).

Obviously, this needs playtesting. Both to see if it indeed makes turning smoother and more interesting to the player (as I believe it will), but also to see if it is balanced.

Here's a couple of balance issues that I would like some thoughts on:

Does the 'max HD of a single undead turned = twice Cleric's level' scale too fast? Should it be capped at Cleric's level +4 or maybe Cleric's level +Wis modifier?

Is the boost in turning power balanced by the fewer attempts per day and the shorter range? Should the range be a cone instead of a burst, to limit the effect?

Should turning be a full round action?

Basically, which of these would you impliment to make this variant a balanced one?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Does the 'max HD of a single undead turned = twice Cleric's level' scale too fast? Should it be capped at Cleric's level +4 or maybe Cleric's level +Wis modifier?

I think it does, yeah. I'd go with level + 4, since that keeps you in the same ballpark as the RAW, and thus eliminates at least one potential balance issue.

Is the boost in turning power balanced by the fewer attempts per day and the shorter range? Should the range be a cone instead of a burst, to limit the effect?

Should turning be a full round action?

Basically, which of these would you impliment to make this variant a balanced one?

Hmm... I'd probably have to play around with it a bit before I could say for certain. I'm not entirely sure by exactly how much we've boosted the power at this point.

Oh, I wanted to add something, just for the record. Not suggesting you should do it this way if you don't want to, just something I've been pondering. (This goes completely counter to the last idea I posted, BTW; I'm not suggesting they go together, because they can't.)

If we really wanted to make Turn Undead as simple and consistent as possible, it wouldn't involve a roll on the cleric's part at all. We'd treat it like an area-effect spell, against which the undead have to make a save. I think that's simplest and most consistent with the mechanics of the rules. I just haven't figured out exactly how to adjudicate the effects.

I know that's not what you're looking for; I just wanted throw it out as part of the discussion.

 

[Grayhawk]

I think it does, yeah. I'd go with level + 4, since that keeps you in the same ballpark as the RAW, and thus eliminates at least one potential balance issue.

My reason for not having the max HD of a single undead be this limited from the get-go, was that certain undead with high HD have incomparable low CR's, making the inability to turn them due to HD kind of strange. I was hoping that the turn DC of those undead with high HD and comparable CR's would be enough to lessen the risk of them being turned be a Cleric of a significant lower level.

Hmm... I'd probably have to play around with it a bit before I could say for certain. I'm not entirely sure by exactly how much we've boosted the power at this point.

Same here

If we really wanted to make Turn Undead as simple and consistent as possible, it wouldn't involve a roll on the cleric's part at all. We'd treat it like an area-effect spell, against which the undead have to make a save. I think that's simplest and most consistent with the mechanics of the rules. I just haven't figured out exactly how to adjudicate the effects.

Complete Divine already have a mechanic for this (basically, a Cleric's turning does 1d6 damage per level, half to those undead that make a Will save vs a DC set by the Cleric). For those inclined, the mechanic could propably be changed to have a standard turn effect instead.

But, as you say, this is not what I'm looking for. For one thing, I don't feel it would be simpler for the DM to roll saving throws for all undead within a turning checks area of effect, compared to the fewer rolls made by the Cleric's player (one per type as opposed to one save per individual). Plus, if the Cleric botches his roll for the weakest type, all rolling stops. If the turning check required the undead to save, the DM would have to keep rolling for them all.

Also, this makes the turning too much like a spell effect, where I want it to be something that requires an attack like roll on the Cleric player's behalf, as that puts the power in his (the player's) hands, making the game more interesting, IMO.

Edit: Btw, don't forget to check out my Turning Variant for Paladins

 

[Kerrick]

I was heavily involved in the last discussion, but I never did see if they came to any kind of consensus (I went to military school for 6 weeks, and they didn't have internet).

I am thinking of making it something like magic circle vs. {alignment}. Any undead that makes it's save can enter, anyone that fails is repelled, anyone that fails critically (more than five) is turned to dust.

I like that.

I think it does, yeah. I'd go with level + 4, since that keeps you in the same ballpark as the RAW, and thus eliminates at least one potential balance issue.

Again, I agree. But see below.

For example, a 9th-level cleric rolls a 17 on his turn check. 17 means you can affect undead up to 2 HD higher than your level. So, he can turn up to a 9 HD undead, and he turns 17 total HD worth of undead.

The advantages to doing it this way, rather than by the book? Far faster, and more intuitive than rolling a second damage roll of 2d6 plus modifiers.

The disadvantages? It makes turning a lot more potent, since you can potentially turn a lot more HD-worth on a D20 + modifiers than on 2d6 + modifiers.

I like this variant also.

It's not really all that many more - the max is upped by 8, and the average by 4. I do like the solution, though - that's the way it used to be. If an undead succeeds in resisting your holy might, then you shouldn't be able to try to turn it again - he's going to stomp up and smash your face in.

My reason for not having the max HD of a single undead be this limited from the get-go, was that certain undead with high HD have incomparable low CR's, making the inability to turn them due to HD kind of strange. I was hoping that the turn DC of those undead with high HD and comparable CR's would be enough to lessen the risk of them being turned be a Cleric of a significant lower level.

Yeah, there is that disparity between HD/CR, especially with zombies and skeletons. I look at it this way - a high-HD zombie's ties to the NEP are stronger than a weaker zombie's, and thus it's better able to resist the divine power. Or some such thing. But really, these are more the exception than the rule, right?

 

[Grayhawk]

I am thinking of making it something like magic circle vs. {alignment}. Any undead that makes it's save can enter, anyone that fails is repelled, anyone that fails critically (more than five) is turned to dust.

I've been giving this some more thought. What would the details be like?

Should the duration just be 1 minute like like normal turning?

What should the radius be?

Would attacking those repelled break the turning?

I kinda like the idea of keeping the undead at bay opposed to making them flee (an intelligent undead could still choose to do so, of course), but I dislike the part about standard turning that makes it possible to attack without risk of repercussions.

 

[Vrecknidj]

So, I sat down and tried to come up with some numbers. I asked myself, what would a typical cleric at a variety of levels do with a turn undead check? I figured that my generic cleric starts with a 16 Cha, and gets better every few levels (I know this might be a little on the high side, but I wanted to figure this for a cleric who would specialize in turning undead, so I picked a high Cha).

A Clr3 will usually turn a 4HD undead, and will usually turn 3 of them.
A Clr6 will usually turn a 7HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.
A Clr9 will usually turn a 10HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.
A Clr12 will usually turn a 13HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.

Okay, so I noticed a pattern. I decided to then ask how many HD of lower-powered undead each cleric could turn. This generated new results. Then I asked myself how many hit points worth of enemies this was effectively defeating.

So, I thought, why not make this work like a modified version of the paladin's lay on hands?

A cleric's turn undead could work like this. The damage is cleric's level * Cha modifier (for paladins, it's paladin's level - 4). So the Clr12 with an 18 Cha is doing 48 points of damage. This isn't going to kill a 12HD undead (in one blast), but it's going to wipe out all the minions that are 7th level and lower (which fits, because a Clr12 destroys any 6HD undead that is turned). The ones that live through it aren't going to like getting a second one.

If the damage seems too much, or this makes turning too powerful, add in a Will save for 1/2 damage. Make the DC equal to 10 + 1/2 Cleric's level + Cha modifier.

Dave

 

[jerichothebard]

I am thinking of making it something like magic circle vs. {alignment}. Any undead that makes it's save can enter, anyone that fails is repelled, anyone that fails critically (more than five) is turned to dust.

I've been giving this some more thought. What would the details be like?

Should the duration just be 1 minute like like normal turning?

What should the radius be?

Would attacking those repelled break the turning?

I kinda like the idea of keeping the undead at bay opposed to making them flee (an intelligent undead could still choose to do so, of course), but I dislike the part about standard turning that makes it possible to attack without risk of repercussions.

Here's what I think…

duration: concentration, up to 1 round/(effective cleric) level - see below

radius: I'm thinking about reducing it from 60' to 30', with the availability of a feat to increase it (sort of like metamagic - maybe costing two turning attempts)

attacking: I think maintaining the turn should be like concentrating to maintain a spell.

Some spells require continued concentration to keep them going. Concentrating to maintain a spell is a standard action that doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Anything that could break your concentration when casting a spell can keep you from concentrating to maintain a spell. If your concentration breaks, the spell ends.

effects:
Will save DC (10+effective cleric level+CHA bonus+whatever other bonuses) Negates.

Turn resistance applies to this Will save as resistance bonus.

Undead who fail are knocked prone and must get up on their turn and flee the radius of effect. They may not attempt to re-enter the area as long as the effect remains.

Additionally, undead who critically fail (by more than five) take 1d6 holy damage/2 effective cleric level. I think I will cap this at 5d6(?)

Undead attempting to enter the area of effect must succeed at the same Will save or be prevented from entering. Undead forced into the area (picked up and thrown by a hearty fighter type, for example) suffer the same effects as the undead initially in the area.

Undead prevented from leaving the area begin to take damage on the second round of "exposure".

Greater turning:
As turning, except as follows:
undead in the radius must succeed at a will save, or be destroyed. Undead who make their save take 1d6 holy damage/effective cleric level/round while within the area of effect, no damage cap (or maybe 10d6?).



Bolstering Undead:
gives undead a turn resistance of +1/effective cleric level, and 1d6 temporary hitpoints/2 cleric levels. 30' radius


Note that these are draft rules I just came up with; no playtesting yet. I will let you know next week if I get the chance to test them.


jtb

ps - attached is a pdf print of the spreadsheet I did comparing the two methods of rolling for undead. Hope it's clear.