Turning Variant

[comrade raoul]

It wouldn't at all surprise me if something very close to this has been posted already.

Turning Undead
Ignore the standard turning check and turning damage rules. Instead, clerics turn undead according to the following procedure. Turning remains a standard action.

• Choose a single undead creature within 60 feet. Make a turning check, rolling 1d20 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier against a DC equal to 10 + the creature's hit dice. If you succeed, you turn the creature, and it runs away from you as normal, yelping or groaning to whatever extent that its profane anatomy permits. If you have at least twice as many cleric levels as a creature you turn has hit dice, you destroy the creature instead.
• After attempting to turn one creature, you can attempt to turn any other undead creatures within range. However, your turning check suffers a cumulative -2 penalty for each undead creature you have successfully turned on that turning attempt.

I think this is simpler and more elegant than the standard rules, because it avoids the complicated turning checks and turning damage system, which may be the single subsystem in D&D that more complicated and less intuitive than the grappling rules. I'd guess that turning remains about as effective under this system as under the standard rules, but I thought I'd wait until I got some feedback before doing much math.

 

[Ciaran]

Interesting. This system has the potential to give some very different results; a level 1 cleric could potentially turn a vampire or lich, which is impossible under the current system. (This can easily be remedied by limiting turning to undead whose hit dice do not exceed the cleric's level + 4.) And there's a *lot* more dice rolling involved when dealing with groups of lesser undead. But it's definitely simpler and more intuitive than the current rules.

 

[Nifft]

Only a couple of quibbles:

1/ This destroys one valid BBEG tactic ("shambling cannon fodder") for undead BBEGs. If you can choose to turn the BBEG while ignoring his zombie minions, he's really screwed.

2/ No limit to the number of hit dice you can affect? Could really be a LOT of rolling for "room-clearing" level cleric.

So, I'd restrict the targeting, and allow one roll for a bunch of similar critters.

-- N

 

[DreamChaser]

It seems like it would make more sense (speed and elegance wise) to have the cleric choose a specific undead and make a turn check against that undead (DC as above); if successful, the effect spreads to the next closest undead. Same turn check but now the DC is 2 higher. If the check is still high enough, that undead is turned and the effect carries to the next closest undead.

To address the BBEG-undead with undead minions issue, one could choose to require that the effect start as close to the cleric as possible but I don't think this is necessary. Most powerful BBEG-undead types are either spellcasters or have access to magical items. A disguise self, alter self, or hat of disguise could make BBEG look like another mook. Plus, this system relies on the cleric to decide where to start the effect. The cleric could easily choose wrong and use an attempt on mooks when he wanted to hit the shock troops or BBEG but got confused about which undead were more undeadly.

DC

 

[airwalkrr]

I agree that the turning rules are distasteful for a number of reasons. A cleric with a good turning check (or worse, the Sun domain or levels of Radiant Servant) can utterly evaporate an undead challenge with one action. I've considered using the turning variant from CD although it still doesn't sit with me quite well.

One change I thought about that both encourages clerics to stick with one class and that tones down the power of turn undead is to make it an ability that scales more with cleric level. A 1st level cleric can only turn undead 1/day. A 5th level cleric can turn undead 2/day, and every 5th level after that (10th, 15th, etc.) the cleric gains an additional use of turn undead. You no longer get bonus turn undead attempts from Charisma and the Extra Turning feat either doesn't exist or only grants two bonus turning attempts. Paladins get as many turning attempts per day as a cleric three levels lower.

Of course, turn undead attempts are most abusable with feats that grant additional uses for turn undead attempts. This variant rule reduces the abuse of such feats (particularly troublesome ones like Divine Metamagic) and encourages clerics who want to have turn undead "stamina" to keep leveling as a cleric.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

It is interesting, but a party can be royally screwed if an army of undead come at them from every direction.

 

[comrade raoul]

Only a couple of quibbles ...

Both right on target (as usual, for you). I agree with you about restricting the targeting, both for the reason you give and because it seems worthwhile to keep revised turning rules as close to the original rules as possible, and my original system deviated from them unnecessary.

On the other hand, allowing one roll for a bunch of similar critters meanns that it might be tough to fix the DC for the group -- allowing one roll at the unmodified 10 + HD DC means that it would become very easy for a mid-level cleric to turn, say, any amount of wights, and increasing the DC by some amount would (a) require adding at least more complexity to the revised turning rules, since you'd have to set some new criterion for doing so and (b) make turning more of all-or-nothing affair: either you turn all of the wights or or none of them. So I like Dream Chaser's suggestion, and here, for the record, is the revised version:

• When you turn undead, you initially affect the closest undead creature within 60 feet. Make a turning check, adding 1d20 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier against a DC equal to 10 + the creature's hit dice. If you succeed, you turn the creature, and it runs away from you as normal, yelping or groaning to whatever extent that its profane anatomy permits. If you have at least twice as many cleric levels as a creature you turn has hit dice, you destroy the creature instead.
• After attempting to turn one creature, you can attempt to turn the next closest undead creature within range. Use the same turning check result against all other creatures you affect, but increase the DC by 2 for each undead creature you have successfully turned on that turning attempt.

Much depends on the result of the initial turning check, then, but I'm okay with that.