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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 9529446" data-attributes="member: 7023840">I think that there are three separate issues going on here. But before I get into that, I need to start by saying the Whedon is most certainly NOT a hack. That's not to defend anything about the person, but just to state the obvious- there is a reason that people (especially the people in the greater nerd community) had put him on a pedestal- Films like Toy Story. Titan A.E. Serenity. The Cabin in the Woods. The Avengers.  And shows like Buffy. Angel. Firefly (<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/firefly-reconsidered-why-firefly-isnt-hall-of-fame-great.680424/" target="_blank">even though I still think it's not all that</a>). Dollhouse (I will return to this). Agents of SHIELD. And, of course, Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog. I mean, that alone is enough for some! But seriously, all of that? It's a murderers' row of nerd canon, mapping out the transition of nerd culture from the fringe to the mainstream. But his writing suffers from what I call the Citizen Kane problem. If someone today watches Citizen Kane without any context, they might recognize it as a good movie. Or they might ask why people think it is such a big deal. But without context, they will likely not understand why so many consider it one of the, if not the, greatest films of all time. And the reason for that is that CK was so amazing and so ahead of its time ... at that time! But all the innovations have now been taught and mined and used in the years since that it's hard to understand how groundbreaking it was. Same with Whedon. There was nothing like his writing at the time. The distinctive, witty, and referential dialogue. The subtext and subversion. It was like nothing else out there. From 1997 (the airing of BTVS) through 2012 (Avengers movie) he could do no wrong ... just be wronged, by Fox, usually. But success attracts imitators, and the quippy and self-referential style ("Whedonesque") spread. So when people look back, it's hard to see what was so distinctive back then. In fact, that style is pervasive that a lot of people complain about it now (okay, it's time for the quippy banter in the superhero movie ... checked that box!). The second issue is that the past is the past. Attitudes were different enough that things slipped by. Plus, Whedon was knowing for putting in strong feminist themes in his work, and so many of his regulars kept working with him, that a lot of viewers probably ascribed any uncomfortable thought to, well, maybe they weren't grokking what he was doing.Which brings us to the third issue. Take Dollhouse. I remember enjoying it, but ... that premise. I just had issues with it. I never just had the ability to enjoy it at the time... it was always a weird watch. I remember at the time I thought that there's gotta be something he's trying to say, or would develop. Or my best worst example- Charisma Carpenter in Angel. If you've watched the show, you know what I mean. She came over from Buffy, and at a certain point in the series, her character just got so hosed. Again, at the time, I thought maybe it was just bad writing or something- no one is perfect. But if you watched the Buffyverse, the CC arc on Angel is just ... it's not good. And then when you later learn what was going on, it all clicks into place.Whew. That's a lot. There is, of course, another group of people. You know. #SNYDERCUT But while I won't engage with that, it seemed that by Age of Ultron his ability to maintain a fresh writing perspective had .... diminished. I still love BTVS as one of my all-time favorite shows. Whedon was not a hack. But yes, knowing some things (context) can make some of the plot choices of his shows... not great (see also, Firefly's direction that I've discussed before). Strong disagree. Season 7 is the worst season, in my opinion. But Season 6? I put that right there with Season 3. It's just Season 6 can be a tough watch.</blockquote>

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