Tweaking the Star Wars Saga Edition Skill System

[Oversquid]

I've been reading through the Star Wars Saga Edition rulebooks, and I must say that as a whole, I love this game system. The few things I didn't like I tweaked a little, but by far, the harder one to tweak is the skill system.

As a whole though, I like the skill system, but I think some of the numbers might be a tad bit too much on the inflated end. To explain what I mean, I'm going to post the formula for calculating skills below:

1d20 + One Half Character Level/HD + Ability Modifier + Miscellaneous Modifiers

So, discounting Miscellaneous Modifiers for a second, we're going to take a Level 20 character with the Perception skill, and harboring a Wisdom Score of 16, resulting in a +3 Wisdom Modifier due to their Wisdom Score.

Now, assuming no Miscellaneous Modifiers, this level 20 character rolls the following skill check roll when it comes to Perception: 1d20 + 10 (half of 20 is 10) + 3, resulting in a +13 modifier (that is, 10 + 3 = 13. The 1d20 is the roll, not the modifier).

Next, we'll factor in Miscellaneous Modifiers:

Miscellaneous Modifiers can be anything from racial abilities to feats. Its in the Miscellaneous Modifiers range where the inflation tends to happen. For instance, at level 1, you can choose a certain number of skills you are Trained in. When you become Trained in a skill, you get a +5 bonus to the skill, and can use the Trained applications of the skill.

Another feat available at level 1 is the Skill Focus feat. When you get the Skill Focus feat, you gain another +5 bonus to that skill.

So lets return to our friendly level 20 person, who neither has the Skill Focus feat in Perception, nor the Training in Perception. This means that our friendly level 20 person has to roll the following formula for their Perception checks: 1d20 + 13 (like stated above).

Now we'll take this young level 1 whippersnapper who has been staring and hearing things all his life, making him Trained in Perception, and also giving him a Skill Focus in Perception too. We'll also assume that his Wisdom Score is also 16, resulting in a +3 Modifier. This means that he rolls the following when he makes Perception checks: 1d20 + 0 (Half his level, rounded down, is 0) + 3 + 10 (Due to Miscellaneous Modifiers). This also makes it 1d20 + 13.

Where I have my problem is in the fact that the level 1 might have too much of a modifier right off the bat if they take up training in their skills.

However, I do think that a +10 Modifier overall as the number that results from focusing on a skill or two is a good number (give or take a few) overall. So I suppose my question is, how do I best distribute that number around, such that there isn't so much inflation with the values in so little time?

My idea right now, is to make it so that when you become Trained in a skill, you can use the Trained applications of that skill (And make sure to houserule a bunch of Trained applications that each skill can have if they had no trained applications beforehand). Then with Skill Focus, you gain a +5 bonus with that skill. Then make another feat called Improved Skill Focus, which becomes available at level 10 or 11, that grants yet another +5 bonus in that skill.

I hope I made sense in the above, and if you have better ideas or need clarification, just say something.

Thanks!

 

[Quickleaf]

I've only ever run 2 sessions of SW SAGA but I loved it!

I don't see a problem with a level 1 PC having +13 Perception; after all they've invested a skill and a feat. Feats are precious resources that many players use to "combatify" their PCs. Instead this player is saying "my PC is a sharp-eyed Outer Rim scout, and very little gets past him" or "my PC is a gifted investigator who has been combing the depth of the Coruscanti underworld".

I actually think it says a lot about the system. After all - having invested no resources toward it - your level 20 Jedi is as sharp-eyed as that scout or as astute as that investigator. If anything it shows the power of the "+1/2 level" to skills!

 

[GMMichael]

Two main questions:
How do members of different classes improve their skills?
How do the target numbers/DCs work for Saga?

By granting skill bonuses to everyone at half level, the system has made everyone improve at everything as they level up. Sucks to have a hero in your market, because once he gets to a high enough level, he can out-perform everyone from the blaster battery repairman to the force fortune teller. And probably charge less too.

But anyway, change the Trained bonus to equal half the character's level, and drop Focus down to a +3. You should be fine after that.

 

[Oversquid]

Two main questions:
How do members of different classes improve their skills?
How do the target numbers/DCs work for Saga?

By granting skill bonuses to everyone at half level, the system has made everyone improve at everything as they level up. Sucks to have a hero in your market, because once he gets to a high enough level, he can out-perform everyone from the blaster battery repairman to the force fortune teller. And probably charge less too.

But anyway, change the Trained bonus to equal half the character's level, and drop Focus down to a +3. You should be fine after that.

To answer your first question, there are 5 classes that are loosely defined, and each class gets a certain number of skills + Intelligence Modifier in skills that can be trained. So a Soldier starts out with an initial 3 skills + Intelligence Modifier. Once trained, you gain a +5 bonus to that skill.

Then you leave that skill alone for the most part, and let leveling up improve the skills (unless you want to take the Skill Focus feat, or some other feat that expands on another skill). But if you want another skill, you take the Skill Training feat, and it allows you to take up yet another skill and be trained in it instantly.

Typically, the highest DC you'll find is a DC of 30 to 35, though 40 can happen as well. There's a lot of numbers flying about, but for the most part, skills only go up via leveling, training, or Skill Focus.

My only concern with your suggestion is that Skill Focus might end up becoming dwarfed, while training is the primary way of getting those skills up to high levels, such that with training, you'll get a +2 bonus to all skills every 2 levels, totalling at a +20 bonus, while Skill Focus only grants +3, making the total +23. Yes, +3 is something, but compared to 20, it might not be a worthwhile feat anymore.

If I didn't interpret your suggestion correctly, feel free to correct me. But nonetheless, thanks for it!

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I have a fairly heavily house-ruled version of SWSE that I've run and played in for quite some time. Here's what I did.

Skills, Defenses, and Attacks scale at the same rate (one-half character level) for all characters.
Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus grants +2 to attacks with that sort of weapon.
Skill Training and skill Focus grants a +4 to checks with that skill.
Defense Boosting Feats (Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes) grants +3 to your Defense.
Armor Grants dice of DR, rolled at the time that damage is calculated.

For me and my groups, this has worked great, though, like I said, it is a pretty extensive set of house rules.

 

[GMMichael]

My only concern with your suggestion is that Skill Focus might end up becoming dwarfed, while training is the primary way of getting those skills up to high levels, such that with training, you'll get a +2 bonus to all skills every 2 levels, totalling at a +20 bonus, while Skill Focus only grants +3, making the total +23. Yes, +3 is something, but compared to 20, it might not be a worthwhile feat anymore.

I think you added the normal level-skill advancement into the Training benefit.

Training: gain a bonus equal to half your level, rounded down, to one skill.
Skill Focus: gain +3 to one skill.

So the Training bonus reaches +5, (the normal amount) at level 10. Note that D&D 3.5 limits on skill points are actually 3 greater than your level, so a Trained SWSE character gets a skill bonus equal to his level, with this houserule.

Skill focus looks bad at a mere +3, but think about this:
At low level, +3 is a significant bonus - equivalent to 6 levels of Training.
At high level, +3 pushes you ABOVE the training maximum, which could be just enough to give you a leg up on your very powerful enemies. When combat, or any conflict, is especially important or lethal, that 15% (d20 system, right?) can mean a lot.
[MENTION=38016]Michael Silverbane[/MENTION]: that's a clear, consistent system. It looks like it dismantles the classes a bit, since Skills, Defenses, and Attacks become the same for each class. Did you notice that some classes lost popularity after that happened?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

Not really.

The main reason to take one class over another is to get a talent related to that class. What it really did was to make multiclassing super easy. At each level, you get the hit points and (possibly) a talent from whichever class you choose.

In theory, you could gain some advantage by taking levels in a lot of (the five available) classes, but most players stick to two or, occasionally, three.

 

[DonAdam]

The only problem I have with the Saga system is low-level force users against Defenses, which have not yet scaled up. So, e.g., you h might have someone rolling +10 or more Use the Force checks against an enemy with defenses between 11 and 14, typically.

 

[delericho]

The only problem I have with the Saga system is low-level force users against Defenses, which have not yet scaled up.

Yep. When running one-shots, I've deliberately not assigned Skill Focus (Use the Force) to pre-gen characters for exactly that reason. For my upcoming campaign, I'm house-ruling that that SF feat (but only that one) requires that the character be 9th level or higher to take, and that it cannot be taken as a "Bonus Feat".

Doing that means both that it doesn't come into effect while that +5 bonus is game-breaking, and also that if a Jedi wants it, it's at the cost of a "Force Training" feat (which is also very desirable).

 

[Bagpuss]

The only real problem with how skills work in Saga is (if I remember correctly) force powers (including attacks) are skills.

So if you select Force as a trained skill for +5, and Focus in it at +5 you can start off with a force attack skill at +13 or more, targeting a defense, which is designed at 1st level to at worse work against +3 to +5 attack skills.

But then as you progress in levels skills only improve by +1/2 level while defenses go up by +level. So force users actually get progressively less likely to succeed at their powers against equal opponents.

There is nothing wrong with having characters highly skilled in their chosen careers at 1st level. It fits with the genre, fresh off the farm Luke Skywalker was flying like an X-Wing Ace.