DMs sometimes counter optimized -5/+10 builds by giving monsters maximum hitpoints. The problem in this approach is that it "forces" fighters to select the GWM feat or drop behind in the damage treadmill. (A better approach would be to give monsters higher AC, but I suppose many DMs will want to stay within RAW.) What if we rolled the hitpoints of each monster, at least of those that appear in groups, or gave them the minimum of hitpoints, and then maybe doubled their numbers?
D&D 5E Twice the monsters with minimum hitpoints to counter GWM/SS?
- Thread starter Mrodron
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Charlaquin
Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Yeah, more monsters with fewer hit points would be a solid counter to GWM and SS that allows players without them to still contribute effectively. Do be careful though, because large groups of monsters can bury PCs under pure action economy. If you’re going to double the number of monsters in an encounter, you should also reduce their damage as well as their HP.
Li Shenron
Legend
I do not counter GWM/SS at all. They help martial characters keep up with spellcasters.
But if you have a problem with that, I agree that having more monsters with higher AC and less HP will help, since the -5/+10 ability works best against big easy-to-hit bags of HP.
But if you have a problem with that, I agree that having more monsters with higher AC and less HP will help, since the -5/+10 ability works best against big easy-to-hit bags of HP.
It will do that some but GWM allows a free attack when you drop an enemy to zero hp
Especially if your party has limited AOE spells. 30 Goblins, played well in open terrain would be difficult for 4 10th-level fighters. Same group would be easy for 3 fighters and a wizard.
This doesn't make any sense. If the fighter has not yet selected GWM as a feat, there's no reason for the DM to counter it by maximizing monster hit points.
If the DM is maximizing monster hit points it's because the warriors already have GWM and are doing so much damage that monsters are becoming trivial and unchallenging.
Stoutstien
lunk
If a few points of damage is shifting encounters into the unchallenging and trivial category then the issue is on the DM's side not the players'. Increasing anything in response to the players' feat selection amounts to treadmill progression. You are better off not using those feats or just giving them away for free and factor it in right off the bat.
(a) work out your party's power level experimentally.
(b) 6-9 encounters per long rest, and 2-3 per short rest. If this doesn't fit your pacing, consider gritty rests, it makes it easy.
(c) start using alternative encounter building.
The easiest is to add up the CR of monsters and compare to the sum of levels of the party divided by 4. Past level 5, this is a shockingly good proxy for the complex DMG encounter XP building math.
Monsters =~ PCs/6 -- easy
Monsters =~ PCs/4 -- moderate
Monsters =~ PCs/3 -- hard
Monsters >= PCs *0.4 -- deadly
(The largest error this has is with CR 1 and under monsters, which you tend to use in larger numbers, so you might want to fudge it: Replace CR 1 with 6/5, CR 1/2 with 4/5, CR 1/4 with 3/5 and CR 1/8 with 2/5 of a point).
Once you get used to doing this, you'll start noticing your players with their gear and optimization are too strong. Just bump up the effective level of the party -- which corresponds to boosting the encounter budget in a linear way.
So a party of 5 level 10s? Sum is 50.
CR budget by difficulty is:
Easy: 8
Medium: 13
Hard: 17
Deadly: 20
If you want to build "scenes" in a similar way (a scene is a set of encounters bundled together such that a short rest between them would lead to consequences -- aka, some kind of failure or complication), you have a 4 point budget in a "moderate" scene. An easy scene has 2-3, a hard scene has 5-6, a deadly scene has 7-8.
Toss in encounters in that scene. Each Easy is worth 1, Medium 2, Hard 3 and Deadly is worth 4. (We don't add up CR here because easy fights drain way less endurance than their CR sum would indicate).
String together 3 scenes into a chapter (a chapter is a set of scenes/encounters where taking a long rest before completing them would lead to consequences -- aka, some kind of failure or complication). 2 scenes make an easier chapter, 4 makes a harder one.
(This doesn't require a railroad. Suppose you have a shrine to a demon they find in the wilderness. In gritty rests, it could be a scene. There is an easy encounter of undead outside, a medium encounter of uneasy spirits inside, then a hard encounter of a demon appearing to prevent to shrine from being purified. If the players disengage and take a night's rest, the awakened shrine spawns the demon and more undead and attacks if the PCs are still in the area. During that attack, a demon-spirit rides an undead and flees, setting up a new seed of evil elsewhere. Consequence, not railroad.)
(b) 6-9 encounters per long rest, and 2-3 per short rest. If this doesn't fit your pacing, consider gritty rests, it makes it easy.
(c) start using alternative encounter building.
The easiest is to add up the CR of monsters and compare to the sum of levels of the party divided by 4. Past level 5, this is a shockingly good proxy for the complex DMG encounter XP building math.
Monsters =~ PCs/6 -- easy
Monsters =~ PCs/4 -- moderate
Monsters =~ PCs/3 -- hard
Monsters >= PCs *0.4 -- deadly
(The largest error this has is with CR 1 and under monsters, which you tend to use in larger numbers, so you might want to fudge it: Replace CR 1 with 6/5, CR 1/2 with 4/5, CR 1/4 with 3/5 and CR 1/8 with 2/5 of a point).
Once you get used to doing this, you'll start noticing your players with their gear and optimization are too strong. Just bump up the effective level of the party -- which corresponds to boosting the encounter budget in a linear way.
So a party of 5 level 10s? Sum is 50.
CR budget by difficulty is:
Easy: 8
Medium: 13
Hard: 17
Deadly: 20
If you want to build "scenes" in a similar way (a scene is a set of encounters bundled together such that a short rest between them would lead to consequences -- aka, some kind of failure or complication), you have a 4 point budget in a "moderate" scene. An easy scene has 2-3, a hard scene has 5-6, a deadly scene has 7-8.
Toss in encounters in that scene. Each Easy is worth 1, Medium 2, Hard 3 and Deadly is worth 4. (We don't add up CR here because easy fights drain way less endurance than their CR sum would indicate).
String together 3 scenes into a chapter (a chapter is a set of scenes/encounters where taking a long rest before completing them would lead to consequences -- aka, some kind of failure or complication). 2 scenes make an easier chapter, 4 makes a harder one.
(This doesn't require a railroad. Suppose you have a shrine to a demon they find in the wilderness. In gritty rests, it could be a scene. There is an easy encounter of undead outside, a medium encounter of uneasy spirits inside, then a hard encounter of a demon appearing to prevent to shrine from being purified. If the players disengage and take a night's rest, the awakened shrine spawns the demon and more undead and attacks if the PCs are still in the area. During that attack, a demon-spirit rides an undead and flees, setting up a new seed of evil elsewhere. Consequence, not railroad.)
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Benjamin Olson
Hero
I'd just go for more high AC encounters.
Not that you shouldn't allow your Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter to absolutely wreck things a fair amount of the time.
Not that you shouldn't allow your Great Weapon Master or Sharpshooter to absolutely wreck things a fair amount of the time.
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