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Two encounters at once: what would you do?

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Take 'em captive, they can meet the new player in the pens, make a daring escape from there.

What he said.

So you "allowed" the PCs to trigger two encounters at once. What were you going to do? Railroad them away from doing so? These things happen when the players aren't focused on the dangers of their PCs' environment. Now, maybe they'll have learned a lesson.

One thing about TPKs that 4e actually makes easier for you - when you take a target down to 0 hit points, you get to decide whether to kill or knock it out. You can do the same with the kobolds and claim you're not fudging to save the party bacon. Just take down that last warlord fast with a KO and capture the lot.

On the topic of having a plot and whether that's a railroad, that depends on the nature of the plot and how you use it. Is it a progressive series of events that will occur in the background and PCs can interact with (and affect)? If so, that's not really a railroad. That's background events. If you write your plot hooks well-enough to suck the PCs, then it's still not a railroad because they are choosing to interact with it because they find the story attractive. Now a lot of adventures and campaigns revolve around a conditional railroad - the GM pitches an idea and the players choose to become involved because that's what the game will be about. While that's not strictly having total free will to choose, the railroad effect is pretty minimal. But if it's a question of forcing players to make certain choices or allowing no other alternatives, then you're really on the tracks.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
This is one of the reasons why the notion of a planned encounter is in some sense ridiculous.

The only way to control encounters is to railroad.

In my opinion you should have designed this as a single encounter with the assumption that no rest would be taken (or available) as foes organized and poured through doorways or fled before the PC's seeking reinforcements. I advice that not because it makes the encounter more balanced (though the recognition that a tribe of kobolds represents in some sense a single continuous encounter is a wise one) but because its less gamist and more believable. If you believe the vault and office exist at the same time and are spatially close to each other, why don't you believe that the inhabitants exist before the doors are open and are taking actions? This might imply that a whole tribe of kobolds is more than a single group of starting adventures need to be facing at once using the system you are using, and certainly in my case I would have waited to challenge a PC party with a tribe of kobolds, priests, and dragon pets until much later level. Instead, I'd probably lead up to this with raiding parties, individual cultists, and other splintered elements of the proximate foe as warm up to the dungeon dive.

Your PC's have done nothing more than rip your gamist veneer off your simulation and now you are wondering what is going wrong.

What is going wrong is you tried to design a tactical war game but played a role-playing game. In a tactical wargame, the scenario you have isn't possible. Encounters aren't triggered because they are scenarios. They are scenarios because there really isn't usually a chose about whether or not you play them. They follow after each other one after the other and don't occur in any larger space than what is necessary for the tactics of the encounter. Things that leave the encounter map leave it because there is no reality outside the encounter map.

You tried to create a reality outside the encounter map because you at some level believe the game is a simulation of that reality and this prevents you from having scenarios. Congratulations, you have a role playing game but unfortunately it's not clear to me that that is what you actually wanted to have.

And why did they have to open both doors?! I had everything planned for their success!

You are not in control of the story.

I want them to win, of course, so they can continue exploring the plot I've created for them.

You are not in control of the story.

If you are creating a world with real space and time so that the possibility of, "You open two doors at the same time" is a real and present one, then the correct way to look at a situation like this is " You need them to win so they can continue creating their own story." Unfortunately, they've decided to create a story of how inexperienced and overconfident young adventures made some rash decisions that led to disaster. And now you are unhappy because you imagined for them a completely different story without getting their input. One of the cardinal sins of a dungeon master is to spend to much time imagining how something will play out in a 'cool' manner - which I'm inclined to think you did. Never try to imagine what the story will be. To the extent that is useful, you should have been imagining things like, "What can go wrong?" instead of imagining things would work like a perfectly scripted novel. It never will, least of all the perfectly scripted novel you wrote on your own.

I think your players have been rash and earned a defeat, but in the defense of your players the very fact that enemies didn't come out of the doors during the prior combat may have led them to believe that there were no nearby enemies. The very gamist assumption you made of distinct and separate combats may have lead the players to imagine their physical surroundings in a way very different than they actually were precisely because the way your physical surroundings were behaving suggested a physical reality different than the one you drew. If I make a lot of noise and nothing comes to investigate, my assumption is that there is nothing nearby to investigate. This assumption is false in this place primarily because I think your reality is incoherent.

While I also wouldn't have let burning hands spot wield hinges because this implies a level of precision to the fan of flames which isn't specified by the text, and usage this implies an amount of heat which if consistently applied would allow the spell to do all manner of fantastic things and beggars the question of why it is not more lethal to living things. I'm pretty sure that if I allowed such a creative usage of a spell that in very short order the spell would cease to have any limitations at all. It would be an all purpose fire spell that did whatever the heck the player wanted - instantly heat metal armor to scorching, heat weapons to disarm foes, fire in narrow rays through crowds to pick out individual targets, act like a temporary wall of fire, make precision cuts in wooden objects, etc. Pretty soon we'd have creative alternate uses that were always more effective than the stated use. Some people call this creative, but its trivially easy to be 'creative' when you have no limits to what is allowed. Creativity is marked by using what you have not inventing what you don't.

However, this GMing mindset I've just outline is simulationist, in that I'm assuming that whatever ruling I make here implies a physical law of the universe (namely, "Burning Hands can be used to impart enough heat to a metal object to weld it.") that implies equivalent behavior in similar situations (for example, "Burning hands can be used to impart enough heat to a metal breastplate to start cooking whatever is wearing it"). With a different GMing mindset, "Rulings are relative only to the situation and what happens is based on whether or not I think the ruling results in a fun/cool/exicting story.", you'd be inclined to rule in favor of the wielding. What this suggests to me is you are actually heavily conflicted. You really want to railroad the players to success, but you are unwilling to admit that or actually embrace your own railroading preferences. You need to decide what you really want - a railroad ride through the plot you've preferred or to actually create a world for your players to create stories in. You seem to be using the tool set of, "My job is to create a world for my players to create stories in", but your actual desired goal is, "I want my players to succeed so they can experience the story I've preferred for them."
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
On the topic of having a plot and whether that's a railroad, that depends on the nature of the plot and how you use it. Is it a progressive series of events that will occur in the background and PCs can interact with (and affect)? If so, that's not really a railroad. That's background events. If you write your plot hooks well-enough to suck the PCs, then it's still not a railroad because they are choosing to interact with it because they find the story attractive. Now a lot of adventures and campaigns revolve around a conditional railroad - the GM pitches an idea and the players choose to become involved because that's what the game will be about. While that's not strictly having total free will to choose, the railroad effect is pretty minimal. But if it's a question of forcing players to make certain choices or allowing no other alternatives, then you're really on the tracks.
My earlier response should have been more nuanced, To Railroad or Not To Railroad is not nearly so binary as I presented it. bill has done a good job of representing some the grey areas between those two stark positions.
 

cmbarona

First Post
I think your players have been rash and earned a defeat, but in the defense of your players the very fact that enemies didn't come out of the doors during the prior combat may have led them to believe that there were no nearby enemies. The very gamist assumption you made of distinct and separate combats may have lead the players to imagine their physical surroundings in a way very different than they actually were precisely because the way your physical surroundings were behaving suggested a physical reality different than the one you drew. If I make a lot of noise and nothing comes to investigate, my assumption is that there is nothing nearby to investigate. This assumption is false in this place primarily because I think your reality is incoherent.

I actually gave this some thought in designing this "dungeon." The dragons didn't hear anything because they were inside a secure vault. The kobolds in the office (a wyrmpriest and his personal guards) didn't respond because they were trying to complete a ritual. When the vault door was opened, the dragons became aware of a potential meal. When the office door was opened, the kobolds inside realized they had been spotted, and the threat of the PCs interrupting the ritual became much more pressing, thus demanding a forceful response. Opening both doors caused the inhabitants of those rooms to respond in kind.

... Also, dude, are you angry with me or something? For some reason your post is coming across as unnecessarily confrontational.
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
I actually gave this some thought in designing this "dungeon." The dragons didn't hear anything because they were inside a secure vault. The kobolds in the office (a wyrmpriest and his personal guards) didn't respond because they were trying to complete a ritual. When the vault door was opened, the dragons became aware of a potential meal. When the office door was opened, the kobolds inside realized they had been spotted, and the threat of the PCs interrupting the ritual became much more pressing, thus demanding a forceful response. Opening both doors caused the inhabitants of those rooms to respond in kind.
Sound reasoning.

Side question: Did the PCs listen at any doors before just trying to open them? If not, that might be something to mention to them. Either directly (if you discuss this encounter and what lead to it blossoming into a near TPK), as an aside the next time the party opens a door they could have listened at and been clued into that there are enemies behind.


... Also, dude, are you angry with me or something? For some reason your post is coming across as unnecessarily confrontational.
I'd chalk it up to Celebrim trying to educate someone about the glories of GNS Theory and the internet stripping it of non-positive sounding tones.


That you waded that far into the GNS laden paragraphs is testament to your bravery and fortitude and I salute you!


-- evil "not a GNS fan" eeyore
 

Celebrim

Legend
... Also, dude, are you angry with me or something? For some reason your post is coming across as unnecessarily confrontational.

No. That's just me. Any perceived emotion on my part should be taken with a grain of salt.

You say they were trying to complete a ritual. Ok, when would that ritual have ended? A ritual like 'Make Whole' takes 10 minutes. If the ritual was began before the fight broke out, why wasn't it complete by the time the party completed the short rest if not before? If they'd gone to the vault, then maybe returned to town for a long rest, then come back, would the ritual have been done by then?

I think it's great that you thought up some rationale for keeping the combats separate but the sort of rationale you provide imply to me that, for example, the ritual had an indefinite duration and regardless of when they opened the door they would have encountered the ritual being performed. The inhabitants of that room have no real animation unless the door is opened, triggering the scripted event. I don't think you had in your notes, "The ritual will be complete by 3:30 PM.", and you kept careful track of time to see if the party arrived before, during, or after the ritual.

My fundamental point going forward from here is that you need to decide what sort of game you really want to have and use the tools appropriate to making that game. Your using what appears to be a loosely simulations tool set, which reflects my tastes and preferences, but it's not at all clear to me from your choice of rules and statements about what you are trying to accomplish and past admission that you've railroaded a lot that this is really what you want.

So I'm basically doing what I usually do and being provocative here, not because I'm angry, but because I'm forceful. If you really want to do simulation, then your doing it wrong. If you really want to railroad, then your unreflected upon adherence to things like concrete spatiality (when as I think, you have abstract temporality as evidenced by the suspended animation ritual occurring 'when they open the door') and rules as physics are getting in the way of your real goals as a GM. If you want to learn to railroad well, I can tell you how. It's not that railroading is bad, it's just that it's often not artfully done.

For example, if you really didn't want the outcome, why didn't it occur to you to redraw the map on the fly so that the vault was not immediately present on the other side of the door, but for example, down a stairway leading to a second similar (locked) door. Or you could have put a corridor on the fly between the room and office. After all, the players have no way of knowing what the map of the world looks like until you tell them. You don't have to stick to any fact you haven't disclosed unless you have a commitment to 'fairness' that is greater than your commitment to a particular story. I think you are trying a little bit to be both director and referee at the same time, but not being consistent in how you apply those stances. The result can only be frustration on your part.

So any way, I agree with several others, that in your case, having the PC's be captured and providing for their eventual escape is probably the best way to color their defeat and get the story back on track.

I completely disagree with the idea of addressing this problem in the metagame. In your case, since it seems like you'd probably be better off embracing your inner conductor and becoming a good one, and one prerequisite of that is becoming a skilled illusionist. One of the goals of a skilled conductor is to get the players to believe that they aren't on a railroad, that the story isn't in a certain sense linear, that events are preceding in a logical manner rather than according to whim or metagame considerations, and that they aren't able to rely on your protection. If that illusion is broken in some way, the results can get ugly. This is not about not admitting your mistakes. This is about on one hand not making it seem like the characters are puppets and you the puppet master, and not making it seem on the other hand like the players will only get what the want and expect. Even on a railroad, the players can give input to the story. It's more about how much of a safety net your preferred plot has than whether or not the players have choices. But you don't want to give the impression that either the PC's or the narrative has so much of a safety net that there is no way you'll let either fail. If you let the players see the magic, it ruins the entertainment.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'd chalk it up to Celebrim trying to educate someone about the glories of GNS Theory and the internet stripping it of non-positive sounding tones.

That you waded that far into the GNS laden paragraphs is testament to your bravery and fortitude and I salute you!

-- evil "not a GNS fan" eeyore

I'm actually more of a GNS heretic than a real fan of the theory. There is a lot language that I think Forge/GNS developed that is useful for describing play and is I think meaningful when discussing game design and play, but on the other hand almost all of the central ideas of the theory - for example, that GNS is space spanning and fully describes the aesthetic goals of play, or that G N and S are mutually exclusive goals, or that 'system matters' (in the sense that is usually meant) - are all ideas that I explicitly reject.
 

evileeyore

Mrrrph
I'm actually more of a GNS heretic than a real fan of the theory. There is a lot language that I think Forge/GNS developed that is useful for describing play and is I think meaningful when discussing game design and play, but on the other hand almost all of the central ideas of the theory - for example, that GNS is space spanning and fully describes the aesthetic goals of play, or that G N and S are mutually exclusive goals, or that 'system matters' (in the sense that is usually meant) - are all ideas that I explicitly reject.
GNS HERESY! BURN THE WITCH!





I agree with you but don't tell anyone, I've got a rep to look out for.
 

cmbarona

First Post
Well, all GNSOMGBBQ stuff aside, a few DM lessons I've garnered through this thread:


  • Don't make encounters architecturally adjacent to other encounters. Even when potentially justified, it leads to plot holes and potentially hairy situations for the PCs.
  • Reward player creativity whenever possible. Even when they want to do the impossible, find a middle ground that might help or accomplish their overall goal, if not the immediate task they've attempted.
  • While the plot is a collaborative effort, you hold far more tools to shape that plot than the players. Use them wisely.
  • Because you hold so many tools, if you want your players to succeed at something and they are making an honest effort to do so, it's up to you to shape their circumstances to make it possible.
  • One of those tools is to change your dungeon architecture on the fly, if you can think of how to do so in the moment.
  • If you can't figure out how to write your way out of a sticky situation (because there will be writer's block, especially when improvising), it's ok to resort to the metagame, but only as much as is absolutely necessary (call a time out, warn players of their actions, etc.).
 


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