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Two handed weapon wielding ranger.
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<blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4605854" data-attributes="member: 61449"><p>I thought of the reach thing, and that is why I figured that versatile one handed weapons would work out better. That way, rangers don't actually get to use weapons that they wouldn't otherwise, and they don't get reach. I don't think that reach would be that amazing for a ranger to get though. They already have a huge ranged thing going. Reach is really just a weaker form of ranged.</p><p></p><p>As for the unarmed/THF ranger, it could work, but it wasn't what I was going for. Think of the wuxia archetype of the bastard sword wielder, typified by the Nameless Hero in the movie Hero. They typically stick to weapon attacks, with a few kicks thrown in here and there, and they are highly mobile. </p><p></p><p>The versatile weapons wouldn't unbalance things any because the ranger already gets to use them one handed if they want, so the damage is only increased by +1 from versatile with two hands. Since the scimitar is 1d8, and many of the versatile weapons are 1d10, the average damage would be about the same between a versatile weapon used two handed and a scimitar weilder with scimitar dance. Actually, scimitar dance should be higher in damage output by a fair degree because an extra dex mod to damage per attack is huge. The hammer wielder with hammer rythm would be up by +1 damage from normal, but this build requires a somewhat MAD build. The +1 damage on top of their already prodigious damage won't mean much for balance. </p><p></p><p>Looking at the ranger/pit fighter builds, this house rule would add approximately an extra +2 damage at 30th level to their already huge 141 max damage with twin strike, so we have 142 instead of 140. When talking about a really optimized character, that versatile property doesn't sound huge. </p><p></p><p>Looking at snapshots at level 1 and level 30, we could look at the ranger/pitfighter to see what the versatile property would do to them. </p><p>[SBLOCK=Male longtooth shifter Ranger 1 (Two-Blade Style HR to THF)]Attributes: Str 18, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8</p><p>HP: 30; Bloodied: 15; Surges: 7 (7 HP) </p><p>AC/Fort/Ref/Will: 16/15/13/13 </p><p>Speed: 5; Initiative: +2 </p><p>Basic Melee: Battle axe (two handed) (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+5 damage) </p><p>Basic Ranged: Javelin (+6 vs. AC, 1d6+4 damage) </p><p>At-Will: hit and run, twin strike </p><p>Encounter: longtooth shifting, two-fanged strike </p><p>Daily: jaws of the wolf </p><p>Trained Skills: Athletics (+10 in chain), Endurance (+7 in chain), Nature (+8), Perception (+8), Stealth (+6 in chain) </p><p>Feats: Armor Proficiency (chain), Toughness (Ranger) </p><p>Gear: 2 battleaxes, 2 handaxes, chain armor, standard adventurer's kit, 5 gp </p><p></p><p>Damage- Twin strike 1d10 (battle axe) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.5 (Attack %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 2-11 (6.5 average, normal average is 5.5) </p><p>Damage-Jaws of the Wolf [1d10 (battle axe) x 2] +4 (STR) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.75 (Damage on attack x Attack % + damage on a miss x miss %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 10.5-37.5 (23.75 average, normal average is 22.25) </p><p></p><p>Level 30 damage average is Pit Fighter (+6 bastard swords, +33/+31 to hit, 3 attacks with follow up blow): 6d10+3d8+59 (68-143, average 105.5, normal average is about 103.5)</p><p>+18 (enhancement bonus) </p><p>+9 (Strength)</p><p>+21 (Wisdom) </p><p>+9 (Weapon Focus) </p><p>+3 (Versatile) [/SBLOCK] </p><p>So there you have it. Early on, rangers would get a bump in average damage by about +1 per round. This is significant because it is about a 10% increase. By level 30, they only have about a 2% advantage. Not that significant.</p><p></p><p>So from this analysis, maybe the option to go 2 hander should be a feat. Seems somewhat comparable in that it is +1 damage at heroic tier. Maybe there should be a kicker to the feat, since there are feats that grant much more than +1 damage in paragon, like scimitar dance or hammer rhythm, and the TWF feat wouldn't stack with it. </p><p></p><p>Maybe the option to use a TWF powers with a versatile weapon with two hands but not gaining any of the benefits of the versatile property would do it, and at that point, the TWF feat loss would make it actually weaker than the normal TWF ranger. Strike out the line in the ranger powers that says "You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon" and replace it with "You must wield a one handed melee weapon or a ranged weapon. You do not gain the benefit of the versatile weapon property." This somehow makes the THF ranger weaker than the TWF ranger. </p><p></p><p>Coming full circle in my argument with myself <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite5" alt=":confused:" title="Confused :confused:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":confused:" />, I think that allowing a feat to use a versatile weapon two handed with the ranger TWF powers would be about right. You lose the TWF feat and the two weapon defense feats, but you gain a feat that in sum total give a +1 to damage per attack. Sounds balanced to me. Lets compare.</p><p></p><p>Weapon focus- +1 damage/attack, +2 in paragon, +3 in epic</p><p>Two Weapon Fighting- +1 damage/attack with main weapon.</p><p>Two-Weapon Defense- Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex.</p><p>Scimitar Dance- +Dex damage with scimitars on a miss, requires 17 dex.</p><p>Hammer Rhythm- +Con damage with hammers on a miss, requires 17 con.</p><p>Blood Thirst- +2 damage against bloodied foes </p><p>Dragonborn Frenzy- +2 to damage/attack when bloodied. Situational.</p><p>Dwarven Weapon Training- +2 to damage/attack, plus other benefits.</p><p>Power Attack- -2 to attack, +2 (+3 with 2 hander) in heroic, +4 (+6) in paragon, in epic +6 (+9) </p><p></p><p>Some of these stack, some don't. The point being that you lose the ability to get the TWF and TWD feats when you wield a weapon two handed. You are then able to better take advantage of the power attack feat. Scimitar Dance doesn't stack, Hammer Rhythm does, but takes away other options and makes the character somewhat MAD. Net effect seems like a wash. To require a feat would make this an option that is not as good as Weapon Focus, maybe slightly (maybe not) better than the TWF feat. </p><p></p><p>Seems to me that adding another Ranger fighting style would also do it pretty well.</p><p></p><p>Two-Hand Fighting Style:Because of your focus on two handed weapon melee attacks, you can wield a versatile weapon two handed for any power that requires you to wield two melee weapons to use. In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat. </p><p></p><p>This even eliminates the Stormwarden as a paragon path, an effective nerf all by itself.</p><p></p><p>Comments on either of these two ideas?</p><p>1) Make it a feat</p><p>2) Make it a Fighting Style</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="PrecociousApprentice, post: 4605854, member: 61449"] I thought of the reach thing, and that is why I figured that versatile one handed weapons would work out better. That way, rangers don't actually get to use weapons that they wouldn't otherwise, and they don't get reach. I don't think that reach would be that amazing for a ranger to get though. They already have a huge ranged thing going. Reach is really just a weaker form of ranged. As for the unarmed/THF ranger, it could work, but it wasn't what I was going for. Think of the wuxia archetype of the bastard sword wielder, typified by the Nameless Hero in the movie Hero. They typically stick to weapon attacks, with a few kicks thrown in here and there, and they are highly mobile. The versatile weapons wouldn't unbalance things any because the ranger already gets to use them one handed if they want, so the damage is only increased by +1 from versatile with two hands. Since the scimitar is 1d8, and many of the versatile weapons are 1d10, the average damage would be about the same between a versatile weapon used two handed and a scimitar weilder with scimitar dance. Actually, scimitar dance should be higher in damage output by a fair degree because an extra dex mod to damage per attack is huge. The hammer wielder with hammer rythm would be up by +1 damage from normal, but this build requires a somewhat MAD build. The +1 damage on top of their already prodigious damage won't mean much for balance. Looking at the ranger/pit fighter builds, this house rule would add approximately an extra +2 damage at 30th level to their already huge 141 max damage with twin strike, so we have 142 instead of 140. When talking about a really optimized character, that versatile property doesn't sound huge. Looking at snapshots at level 1 and level 30, we could look at the ranger/pitfighter to see what the versatile property would do to them. [SBLOCK=Male longtooth shifter Ranger 1 (Two-Blade Style HR to THF)]Attributes: Str 18, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8 HP: 30; Bloodied: 15; Surges: 7 (7 HP) AC/Fort/Ref/Will: 16/15/13/13 Speed: 5; Initiative: +2 Basic Melee: Battle axe (two handed) (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+5 damage) Basic Ranged: Javelin (+6 vs. AC, 1d6+4 damage) At-Will: hit and run, twin strike Encounter: longtooth shifting, two-fanged strike Daily: jaws of the wolf Trained Skills: Athletics (+10 in chain), Endurance (+7 in chain), Nature (+8), Perception (+8), Stealth (+6 in chain) Feats: Armor Proficiency (chain), Toughness (Ranger) Gear: 2 battleaxes, 2 handaxes, chain armor, standard adventurer's kit, 5 gp Damage- Twin strike 1d10 (battle axe) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.5 (Attack %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 2-11 (6.5 average, normal average is 5.5) Damage-Jaws of the Wolf [1d10 (battle axe) x 2] +4 (STR) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.75 (Damage on attack x Attack % + damage on a miss x miss %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 10.5-37.5 (23.75 average, normal average is 22.25) Level 30 damage average is Pit Fighter (+6 bastard swords, +33/+31 to hit, 3 attacks with follow up blow): 6d10+3d8+59 (68-143, average 105.5, normal average is about 103.5) +18 (enhancement bonus) +9 (Strength) +21 (Wisdom) +9 (Weapon Focus) +3 (Versatile) [/SBLOCK] So there you have it. Early on, rangers would get a bump in average damage by about +1 per round. This is significant because it is about a 10% increase. By level 30, they only have about a 2% advantage. Not that significant. So from this analysis, maybe the option to go 2 hander should be a feat. Seems somewhat comparable in that it is +1 damage at heroic tier. Maybe there should be a kicker to the feat, since there are feats that grant much more than +1 damage in paragon, like scimitar dance or hammer rhythm, and the TWF feat wouldn't stack with it. Maybe the option to use a TWF powers with a versatile weapon with two hands but not gaining any of the benefits of the versatile property would do it, and at that point, the TWF feat loss would make it actually weaker than the normal TWF ranger. Strike out the line in the ranger powers that says "You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon" and replace it with "You must wield a one handed melee weapon or a ranged weapon. You do not gain the benefit of the versatile weapon property." This somehow makes the THF ranger weaker than the TWF ranger. Coming full circle in my argument with myself :confused:, I think that allowing a feat to use a versatile weapon two handed with the ranger TWF powers would be about right. You lose the TWF feat and the two weapon defense feats, but you gain a feat that in sum total give a +1 to damage per attack. Sounds balanced to me. Lets compare. Weapon focus- +1 damage/attack, +2 in paragon, +3 in epic Two Weapon Fighting- +1 damage/attack with main weapon. Two-Weapon Defense- Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex. Scimitar Dance- +Dex damage with scimitars on a miss, requires 17 dex. Hammer Rhythm- +Con damage with hammers on a miss, requires 17 con. Blood Thirst- +2 damage against bloodied foes Dragonborn Frenzy- +2 to damage/attack when bloodied. Situational. Dwarven Weapon Training- +2 to damage/attack, plus other benefits. Power Attack- -2 to attack, +2 (+3 with 2 hander) in heroic, +4 (+6) in paragon, in epic +6 (+9) Some of these stack, some don't. The point being that you lose the ability to get the TWF and TWD feats when you wield a weapon two handed. You are then able to better take advantage of the power attack feat. Scimitar Dance doesn't stack, Hammer Rhythm does, but takes away other options and makes the character somewhat MAD. Net effect seems like a wash. To require a feat would make this an option that is not as good as Weapon Focus, maybe slightly (maybe not) better than the TWF feat. Seems to me that adding another Ranger fighting style would also do it pretty well. Two-Hand Fighting Style:Because of your focus on two handed weapon melee attacks, you can wield a versatile weapon two handed for any power that requires you to wield two melee weapons to use. In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat. This even eliminates the Stormwarden as a paragon path, an effective nerf all by itself. Comments on either of these two ideas? 1) Make it a feat 2) Make it a Fighting Style [/QUOTE]
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