Two handed weapon wielding ranger.

[PrecociousApprentice]

I have been frustrated with a lack of crunch to support many fantasy archetypes. Granted, I am really good at reskinning things, but I also like to find elegant house rules for things that are simple, achieve the results you are after, and don't break the game. This is something that requires communication and more than one mind to get right. So here is an idea that I came up with to fill a missing archetype.

I want a two-handed-weapon ranger. Core, using THF is weak. So I propose this simple house rule.

Rangers can use any ranger power requiring them to wield two weapons whenever they use one weapon with the versatile property used two handed.

This means that

Mace
Spear
Battleaxe
Flail
Longsword
Warhammer
Warpick
Bastard sword

could all be used by a ranger two handed.

The effects would be +1 to damage per attack, and the ranger would only have to have one magical weapon. These are all that I could think of for effects that could be called overpowered.

I would preemptively counter these complaints with the facts that the bow ranger only has to have one magic weapon, and at the moment, the two kings of the damage-per-round race are the warhammer wielding dwarf ranger with hammer rythm and the scimitar wielding ranger with scimitar dance. This rule would increase the average damage of the hammer wielder, but only by a few points. The upside being that more fantasy archetypes can be played and reflected mechanically (as apposed to just reskinning a hammer wielding dwarf into something else).

Comments? Criticisms? Could the master optimizers advise me as to how this would compare to core? Thanks in advance.

 

[Starglim]

I've thought for a long time that there should be a spear-fighting ranger path. Add some support for the greatbow and two-handed blades (for hamstring cutting) and sneak back in some variant damage by size, and you'd have a pretty good elephant hunter.

Otherwise, though, I see a distinct lack of ranger-with-bastard-sword archetypes in fantasy. Can you suggest some examples?

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I see the ranger not as a wilderness warrior archetype but as a highly mobile skirmisher. They are the heavy weaponry martial striker, where the rogue is the light weapons striker. This means that things like martial artists should fit into the ranger class. Even katana fencers could be seen as rangers. I am looking for the mobile, THF, light armor striker. Ranger game mechanics fit this better than the rogue. This is a patch to make the ranger work for this. The rogue patch would be much harder to balance.

For wilderness warriors, battleaxe and spear fit well.

For martial artists, flail (three-section staff), spear, longsword, and bastard sword all fit well.

I just didn't see a reason not to include the other versatile in there as well.

 

[inkpenavenger]

A ranger wielding a bastard sword...let me think...

Oh yeah! Remeber ARAGORN much?

Seriously though, I think that house rule would work fine. It all comes down to description really. I would say that if you use a versatile weapon two-handed for a two-weapon power, you don't get the +1 to damage though.

Now how about this though: How would YOU houserule a ranger that wanted to fight with two, one-handed ranged weapons like light crossbows? I've been trying to wrap my head around such a gunslinger for ages!

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

Just have him use the powers as normal. Why would you have to change any crunch for that? The hard part would be reloading, but that would be the same as for only one crossbow. Sorry if this comes off snarky, as it is not meant to, but I really don't see a problem. Nothing in the powers state that they have to be use with only one ranged weapon, or even a projectile weapon, so two crossbows are fine. I have played a ranger that used two javelins, both in melee and ranged.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Another possibility would be to allow the ranger to use a 2-handed weapon as their 'main' weapon, and an unarmed punch or kick or headbutt as their off-hand weapon.

The basic ranger in this situation is making an improvised unarmed strike with his off-hand attack (so no proficiency and 1d4 damage like a dagger). This probably balances out with the extra damage he is getting on his 2H weapon on his primary attacks.

If you as a DM wanted to be kind, you could allow for a new feat "Unarmed proficiency", which nobody has by default but which makes unarmed combat equivalent to a basic weapon with a +2 bonus to hit.

I think this would be a stylish approach which sticks very closely to the existing rules and has less possibilities of accidental unbalancing.

Literary example? The Justicar from Paul Kidds "Return to White Plume Mountain" who typically uses a bastard sword with associated kicks, headbutts and punches IIRC.

Heck, having described it like this I'd like to play a ranger who used a 2H weapon and unarmed combat in this way!

 

[Revinor]

Put a -1 to it on top of that and it should be ok. And make sure that none of other 2h weapon specific abilities/feat will count.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

I see the ranger not as a wilderness warrior archetype but as a highly mobile skirmisher. They are the heavy weaponry martial striker, where the rogue is the light weapons striker. This means that things like martial artists should fit into the ranger class. Even katana fencers could be seen as rangers.

I personally have seen rangers as being the mobile skirmishers, however I have not seen them to be a heavy weapons wielder. Wielding a heavy weapon almost defeats the purpose of being very mobile. I am not saying it is not possible of course. I just have never considered much of a ranger into the role of a heavy weapon wielder.

I see it as most fighters are the ones who wield the big weapons, and this goes similarly with a katana fencer. Fencers in general are not rangers, but dexterous fighters that specialize in specific blows rather than chunky weapon attacks, though heavy weapons are used in some cases.

I don't know if it is just me but I personally don't see why there is a need to skin a ranger into a pseudo-fighter role to simply wield a two-handed weapon.


If you are going to though, I do like the idea of cutting down the attack bonus in order to stop the abuse of two handed weapons when used as such. For example, ranger movement and reach weapons become a bane if they can exploit them.

 

[PrecociousApprentice]

I thought of the reach thing, and that is why I figured that versatile one handed weapons would work out better. That way, rangers don't actually get to use weapons that they wouldn't otherwise, and they don't get reach. I don't think that reach would be that amazing for a ranger to get though. They already have a huge ranged thing going. Reach is really just a weaker form of ranged.

As for the unarmed/THF ranger, it could work, but it wasn't what I was going for. Think of the wuxia archetype of the bastard sword wielder, typified by the Nameless Hero in the movie Hero. They typically stick to weapon attacks, with a few kicks thrown in here and there, and they are highly mobile.

The versatile weapons wouldn't unbalance things any because the ranger already gets to use them one handed if they want, so the damage is only increased by +1 from versatile with two hands. Since the scimitar is 1d8, and many of the versatile weapons are 1d10, the average damage would be about the same between a versatile weapon used two handed and a scimitar weilder with scimitar dance. Actually, scimitar dance should be higher in damage output by a fair degree because an extra dex mod to damage per attack is huge. The hammer wielder with hammer rythm would be up by +1 damage from normal, but this build requires a somewhat MAD build. The +1 damage on top of their already prodigious damage won't mean much for balance.

Looking at the ranger/pit fighter builds, this house rule would add approximately an extra +2 damage at 30th level to their already huge 141 max damage with twin strike, so we have 142 instead of 140. When talking about a really optimized character, that versatile property doesn't sound huge.

Looking at snapshots at level 1 and level 30, we could look at the ranger/pitfighter to see what the versatile property would do to them.
[SBLOCK=Male longtooth shifter Ranger 1 (Two-Blade Style HR to THF)]Attributes: Str 18, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
HP: 30; Bloodied: 15; Surges: 7 (7 HP)
AC/Fort/Ref/Will: 16/15/13/13
Speed: 5; Initiative: +2
Basic Melee: Battle axe (two handed) (+6 vs. AC, 1d10+5 damage)
Basic Ranged: Javelin (+6 vs. AC, 1d6+4 damage)
At-Will: hit and run, twin strike
Encounter: longtooth shifting, two-fanged strike
Daily: jaws of the wolf
Trained Skills: Athletics (+10 in chain), Endurance (+7 in chain), Nature (+8), Perception (+8), Stealth (+6 in chain)
Feats: Armor Proficiency (chain), Toughness (Ranger)
Gear: 2 battleaxes, 2 handaxes, chain armor, standard adventurer's kit, 5 gp

Damage- Twin strike 1d10 (battle axe) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.5 (Attack %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 2-11 (6.5 average, normal average is 5.5)
Damage-Jaws of the Wolf [1d10 (battle axe) x 2] +4 (STR) + 1 (Versatile) x 0.75 (Damage on attack x Attack % + damage on a miss x miss %) x 2 (number of attacks) = 10.5-37.5 (23.75 average, normal average is 22.25)

Level 30 damage average is Pit Fighter (+6 bastard swords, +33/+31 to hit, 3 attacks with follow up blow): 6d10+3d8+59 (68-143, average 105.5, normal average is about 103.5)
+18 (enhancement bonus)
+9 (Strength)
+21 (Wisdom)
+9 (Weapon Focus)
+3 (Versatile) [/SBLOCK]
So there you have it. Early on, rangers would get a bump in average damage by about +1 per round. This is significant because it is about a 10% increase. By level 30, they only have about a 2% advantage. Not that significant.

So from this analysis, maybe the option to go 2 hander should be a feat. Seems somewhat comparable in that it is +1 damage at heroic tier. Maybe there should be a kicker to the feat, since there are feats that grant much more than +1 damage in paragon, like scimitar dance or hammer rhythm, and the TWF feat wouldn't stack with it.

Maybe the option to use a TWF powers with a versatile weapon with two hands but not gaining any of the benefits of the versatile property would do it, and at that point, the TWF feat loss would make it actually weaker than the normal TWF ranger. Strike out the line in the ranger powers that says "You must be wielding two melee weapons or a ranged weapon" and replace it with "You must wield a one handed melee weapon or a ranged weapon. You do not gain the benefit of the versatile weapon property." This somehow makes the THF ranger weaker than the TWF ranger.

Coming full circle in my argument with myself , I think that allowing a feat to use a versatile weapon two handed with the ranger TWF powers would be about right. You lose the TWF feat and the two weapon defense feats, but you gain a feat that in sum total give a +1 to damage per attack. Sounds balanced to me. Lets compare.

Weapon focus- +1 damage/attack, +2 in paragon, +3 in epic
Two Weapon Fighting- +1 damage/attack with main weapon.
Two-Weapon Defense- Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex.
Scimitar Dance- +Dex damage with scimitars on a miss, requires 17 dex.
Hammer Rhythm- +Con damage with hammers on a miss, requires 17 con.
Blood Thirst- +2 damage against bloodied foes
Dragonborn Frenzy- +2 to damage/attack when bloodied. Situational.
Dwarven Weapon Training- +2 to damage/attack, plus other benefits.
Power Attack- -2 to attack, +2 (+3 with 2 hander) in heroic, +4 (+6) in paragon, in epic +6 (+9)

Some of these stack, some don't. The point being that you lose the ability to get the TWF and TWD feats when you wield a weapon two handed. You are then able to better take advantage of the power attack feat. Scimitar Dance doesn't stack, Hammer Rhythm does, but takes away other options and makes the character somewhat MAD. Net effect seems like a wash. To require a feat would make this an option that is not as good as Weapon Focus, maybe slightly (maybe not) better than the TWF feat.

Seems to me that adding another Ranger fighting style would also do it pretty well.

Two-Hand Fighting Style:Because of your focus on two handed weapon melee attacks, you can wield a versatile weapon two handed for any power that requires you to wield two melee weapons to use. In addition, you gain Toughness as a bonus feat.

This even eliminates the Stormwarden as a paragon path, an effective nerf all by itself.

Comments on either of these two ideas?
1) Make it a feat
2) Make it a Fighting Style

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

As far as damage output it isn't a big deal. It seems like this build is more of a flavor class than anything.

I was kicking around the idea for someone being able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand.

The the three ideas are in my thread here.

Take a look at that and see if there are any ideas for them being able to use two handed weapons in a single hand for later on and let me know. Though it seems like things are moving in the right direction for you now.