Two New Language-Related Feats

[Maximillian]

Do people really still use "common"?

I gave up on having the "Common" language back in 2e... It always seemed to me that this sort of thing would never exist, plus I can't understand why every culture of humans would give up having their own language (look at earth...). My current campaign, however, has hundreds of languages, and a veritably infinite number of cultures. The players, as wanderers, have had to take a great number of language skills to keep up with each other, and many more to keep up with the world around them. Early on, as a way to make things easier, I handed out a very potent item: The Circlet of Tongues which gives its wearer the effect of tongues in constant effect. I have now allowed another character to take the epic feat Polyglot without meeting the 25 intelligence prereq in interest of having transators as the party becomes more mobile. Comprehend languages gets thrown around a lot, and some members of the party can't speak to each other, despite the fact that both of them speak five or more languages. We enjoy this style of play immensely, but I could never see making it harder to get languages.

 

[Olive]

Re: OT to Olive

I consede the definition. Also, it is nice to find a person who is equally "driven round the bend" by Shakespeare.

 

[green slime]

The idea of "common" I believe is based on the idea of a simple trading tongue, or similar.

IRL, one such language would be Latin, which was known throughout Europe by the learned. Anybody who was anybody, (and lots who weren't) knew Latin. Even though trying to understand each verbally could be difficult on occasion.

One thing one must remember is that, prior to the event of nationalism, and its attendant schooling program languages where never so clear cut different.

300 years ago, you could travel from Paris to Berlin, and would be hard put to say where they actually stopped speaking French, and started speaking German.

Besides, picking up a smattering of a language to make yourself understood isn't difficult. Sure you may never master the nuances, or become a grammatic wizard... but enough to bargain, ask for simple directions, read signs after just a few days, without active learning, at least if they use a remotely similar alphabet. Add in active learning, and you can get the general feel for a newspaper article in a very short time indeed.

The more languages you know, the more you can easily understand what is being communicated by the other part. What becomes difficult with time is to maintain your fluency... after a while it becomes difficult to differentiate amongst all the silly grammatical rules that provide redundant information, prepositions (placing words: on, to, and so on), and words that are similar in look but very different in meaning.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Die Kluge - now it's sounding like you ARE just using the base rules, but giving some people extra free languages. At least that sounds like the effect it's going to have.

(If speaking to someone normally is a DC 10, and you can take 10, everyone with a non-negative int modifier can talk to everyone - is that it?)

Die Kluge - I'd really like to hear how your system works as a whole. When I posted before, it was because I assumed that what you had posted WAS your entire system, and it really sounded terrible. Maybe there IS something being added to your game by it, but from what you've given so far just makes it sound like an unnecessary complication.

 

[SylverFlame]

That's it Olive, live it up.

As for common... I use it in Quickie adventures (where there isn't a defined world for the game). In my own world, I'm making about four languages that will fill the "common" entry and be seperate languages unto themselves. FR has something like this with all teh different languages around the world. As for the core rules, common is generally the language associated with humans.

My guess for this is that they are the shortest lived species and their language has the fewest nuances of any of the base races. As such, it is relatively easy to pick up when compared with Elven and Dwarven. The name probably comes from teh elves who thought the language was very common (think snooty person making a put-down).

In real life, I don't think a "common" tongue truly exists anymore (however, latin probably could have been called one). The differences between all the languages basically means there isn't a common thread. I realize English is becoming a standard, but I don't think of it as the common tongue of the Earth.

 

[Saeviomagy]

In real life, I don't think a "common" tongue truly exists anymore (however, latin probably could have been called one). The differences between all the languages basically means there isn't a common thread. I realize English is becoming a standard, but I don't think of it as the common tongue of the Earth.

Given that there are very, very few places where at least SOME english isn't spoken, I'd have to say that english is pretty much common - it's certainly more common than pretty much any other language in history.

 

[Maximillian]

You'd be hard pressed to say that English is common if your definition of common is a "mercantile language" or a "less nuanced language." It's one of the most diverse languages on the planet, thanks to the mingling of french and middle-english in 1066.

 

[Pickaxe]

On Common:

"The Common Tongue" is something that comes up in Lord of the Rings and likely the concept is lifted from that. In addition, it just makes life simpler for a game where characters travel the world and want to spend their time looting and fighting, rather than translating. Simpler, but, admittedly, not like anything in the world today. IMC, I treat Common as the language of a once widespread empire (think Romans and Latin) that has not yet diverged among local populations to the point of being unintelligible among them. (I actually have a completely separate "Common" on another continent in the world.)

On languages in D&D 3e:

There definitely is something unrealistic about the treatment of languages in 3e: You spend a couple of skill points, spend an indeterminate (but likely pretty short) amount of time, and now you speak Infernal. And, generally speaking, no one does this, because it's more important to get another rank in Spot and about a dozen other skills than to learn a language. At least that's the way it is in your standard hack and slash campaign, and only those DMs who really want to make languages siginificant will make language an obstacle for their players...provided they don't have easy access to Tongues and Comp Langs.

die_kluge's system is interesting, as it promotes language as an important ability of every character. But there is one flaw that I see in the system. It essentially assumes that every character will spend some time every level learning a language. Learning languages is a time-dependent task, just like improving any skill. The 3e system essentially recognizes this by making languages a skill: you can spend time learning a language, or you can invest that time (and the skill points) in another skill. die_kluge's system doesn't reflect this. I do, however, like the idea of language checks.

--Axe

 

[green slime]

Given that there are very, very few places where at least SOME english isn't spoken, I'd have to say that english is pretty much common - it's certainly more common than pretty much any other language in history.

It is definitely widespread as a "second tongue". But that SOME can be frustratingly LITTLE at times... So in order to really get around, one should learn Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian and Chinese... That would cover most bases.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think that pretty much outlines how common would work - you get along fine in 90% of the places that you've ever heard of, in the other 10%, you'll probably have to find someone around there who can translate, and in everywhere that's truly new an interesting, you'll need to learn some other language yourself.

The difference is that in D&D that last category is quite likely to be some 80% of the campaign world.

Alternately it would be possible to think of common as "enough to get by just about everywhere" rather than english.

So an education in common would cover your native language, plus some english, russian, cantonese, smatterings of the romantic languages etc.

Two people speaking in common will probably communicate in a somewhat halting fashion until they're used to each others peculiarities.

Furthermore, someone's knowledge of common would be constantly expanded and extended as they travel. Barring a teleport, it's unlikely that characters will travel fast enough that they outstrip their own evolving knowledge of common.

Further languages are learnt so easily because they're partially incorporated into knowledge of common - learning the new languages is merely a formalisation of previously acquired knowledge. It's moving from enough to ask for directions and food, cursing, apologising and thanking, to being able to perform witty repartee. Within a party of adventurers, their own peculiar form of common rapidly becomes all-but a new language that all participants are very fluent in.

There - verisimilitude reached, while still keeping the existing system!