D&D 5E Two-Weapon Fighting alteration

[Kannik]

Didn't forget. Just figured it was obvious.

Obvious or no, it is enough though to make the difference that makes GWF pull ahead with each extra attack (just as the cumulative +2 to Dueling style also closes the gap, to the point where it ends up dealing more average damage than TWF).

Anyhow, for non-barbarians (or maybe even for some odd barbarian builds...), there are other hidden advantages of going TWF, such as being able to go DEX, which benefits backup ranged attacks, should one be forced to resort to them against far away enemies.
...
Just the fact that there is no to-go combat style, but different styles that accomplish different results, with the simple sword-and-board being the safe solid option for a simple, non-specialized warrior*, while TWF becomes niche, for some agile melee combatants that want more offense, and GW means plainly STR build upping offense in expense of defense makes me feel the rules are actually in the right track.

At least for my part, I was only considering tweaking the TWF style for fighters (and any upper level additional benefits would only be gained if you have fighter levels) precisely to avoid mucking around with the balance and flavour of the other classes. Similarly, it is that this style ends up becoming more and more lackluster over time (plus being extra effective at low levels) that makes it an issue for the Fighter class. The idea of having interesting choices -- which I wholeheartedly agree with with and support -- is diminished when one of the choices becomes less appealing due to its lessor effectiveness.

I have figured out what I would like to do with a TWF.

When you use your bonus action, for each different enemy you attack you may make an additional attack against that enemy with your offhand weapon. This shifts the TWF into scaling really well on groups but leaves single target damage in the Great Weapon domain.

And this would be an idea that does indeed present an interesting option! It increases effectiveness in a way that's quite different in focus than either Dueling or GWF. And, as a bonus, it preserves the different feel of TWF as employed by a Rogue. I like it. Count my vote for developing this variant.

Kannik

 

[polyteknix]

Just wondering if there were any new developments here?

I have a PC who is an Eldritch Knight with the Dueling Fighting Stlye. Right now he is lvl 8 and uses a Longsword and Shield.

Conceptionally it makes sense to me that he should be able to raise his Damage a bit if he dropped the shield and wielded 2 weapons for non-bank situations.

Mechanically that's not the case. I mostly attributed it to the Fighting Style selection. But looking into it, even the TWF style would STILL lag behind. We're not talking about extreme optimization. Just having things make "sense".

Currently has 16 STR (18 INT).

Dueling;
Green Flame Blade + Bonus attack from War Magic:
2d8+5, 1d8+5 [3d8+10] 23.5 average
Attack Action plus TWF attack:
1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d6 [3d6+6] 16.5 average

TWF style;
Green Flame Blade + Attack from War Magic:
2d8+3, 1d8+3 [3d8+6] 19.5 average
Attack Action + TWF attack:
1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d6+3 [3d6+9] 19.5 average

Even building FOR TWF makes it no more than equal to using a 1h+shield.

I understand that changing the ability mod improves things 'slightly', but still...

Dueling Style 20 Str; GFB + WM - [3d8+14] 27.5 avg. / Attack + Offhand - [3d6+10] 20.5 avg
TWF Style 20 Str; GFB + WM - [3d8+10] 23.5 avg. / Attack + Offhand - [3d6+15] 25.5 avg

Using more weapons is strictly worse and that bothers me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Has anyone tweaked two-weapon fighting? I've seen some on the forum talk about adding the extra attack to the attack action but I'm also looking at increasing the number of attacks to scale with extra attack slightly. I'm not 100% on which I like better at the moment, but I'm leaning towards altering the feat (Dual Wielder?) rather than the fighting style to have an additional bullet point:

• If you have the extra attack option, you can make two attacks with your off-hand weapon instead of one.

Has anyone else done this and do you think this is balanced or too powerful?

"Too powerful" depends a lot on your game style. We house-ruled Two-Weapon Fighting grants one attack with a weapon in your second hand, but does not cost your bonus action. Of course, you also still gain the benefit of ability modifier with the attack as normal. This way if a character has another bonus action option that grants another attack, they can use it in conjunction with Two-Weapon Fighting Style.

 

[cbwjm]

I legit don't remember starting this thread.

 

[polyteknix]

Did you reach a conclusion though?

 

[cbwjm]

Did you reach a conclusion though?

I don't recall. I think the dual-wielding character I may have been wanting didn't come about or maybe I was just thinking about dual-wielding and wanted some ideas for it. Reading through the thread now, I'm reading some posts thinking "great idea!" and finding I've already clicked xp. I think if I was going to adjust the style I'd be inclined to use the +1 AC if you don't attack with the offhand weapon.

 

[polyteknix]

Doesn't that tread heavily on the "Defense" fighting style though?

 

[5ekyu]

Just wondering if there were any new developments here?

I have a PC who is an Eldritch Knight with the Dueling Fighting Stlye. Right now he is lvl 8 and uses a Longsword and Shield.

Conceptionally it makes sense to me that he should be able to raise his Damage a bit if he dropped the shield and wielded 2 weapons for non-bank situations.

Mechanically that's not the case. I mostly attributed it to the Fighting Style selection. But looking into it, even the TWF style would STILL lag behind. We're not talking about extreme optimization. Just having things make "sense".

Currently has 16 STR (18 INT).

Dueling;
Green Flame Blade + Bonus attack from War Magic:
2d8+5, 1d8+5 [3d8+10] 23.5 average
Attack Action plus TWF attack:
1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d6 [3d6+6] 16.5 average

TWF style;
Green Flame Blade + Attack from War Magic:
2d8+3, 1d8+3 [3d8+6] 19.5 average
Attack Action + TWF attack:
1d6+3, 1d6+3, 1d6+3 [3d6+9] 19.5 average

Even building FOR TWF makes it no more than equal to using a 1h+shield.

I understand that changing the ability mod improves things 'slightly', but still...

Dueling Style 20 Str; GFB + WM - [3d8+14] 27.5 avg. / Attack + Offhand - [3d6+10] 20.5 avg
TWF Style 20 Str; GFB + WM - [3d8+10] 23.5 avg. / Attack + Offhand - [3d6+15] 25.5 avg

Using more weapons is strictly worse and that bothers me.

So, am i mistaken or are you comparing two attack sequences - one which uses your 7th level class feature and one that doesn't (only uses a free everyone gets it option) and wondering why the one that doesn't use your class feature doesn't shape up?

Is that correct?

if so, the answer is "because 7th level class features have mnore impact than free options do - by design."

meanwhile, if you look instead at "instead of shield i use the longsword two handed for 1d10 vs 1d8" you do see a slight increase in damage over the use a shield option. not enough to necessarily warrant the trade-off but given you could be swinging a maul or a greatsword, its a matter of choices.

the free TWF option is meant to stack up against (overall big picture) the other free options, not perform as well as options involving class features and so on.

 

[polyteknix]

I'm comparing class features as well in the Fighting style choice.

IMO that specific 7th level feature is designed to allow a EK to be 'somewhat' damage competitive. Without it, casting a spell would only be viable to make you better at ranged attacks than using a bow and horribly worse in melee than other martial options. Which is fine to an extent, because a EK trades spellcasting utility for pure damage potential (again IMO).

But the example was given more to highlight what brought my attention to TWF, and its apparent shortcomings, in the first place.

Conceptionally dropping a shield and attacking with an additional weapon should result in more damage and less AC, right?

At first I thought the reason it DIDN'T was because of the Fighting style choice. Dueling vs TWF.

But even if TWF had been taken, dropping the shield and picking up and extra sword doesn't mean more damage.

I'll add in another comparison.

Dueling Style 16 Str:
2 attacks = 2d8+10 (average damage - 19) forgoing a built in class option for.. reasons? Bonus action free for... second wind? Whatever.
2 attacks + offhand = 3d6+6 (average damage - 13.5) and uses bonus action.

TWF Style 16 Str:
2 attacks = 2d8 +6 (average damage - 15)
2 attacks + offhand = 3d6 + 9 (average damage 19.5)

So, OPTIMIZING for multiple weapons and forgoing the extra defense results in.... 0.5 damage