Typical Healing Surge Usage

If some of the characters are losing a lot more surges than others and running low, you can cast the comrades succor ritual. It allows the characters to exchange surges at the cost of 1 surge to 1 character.

Not quite.

It allows one or more PCs to give up surges in order for a single PC to gain surges. It does not allow PCs to exchange surges however they want.

But if you want more than one PC to gain surges, you need to use the ritual more than once.

Comrades Succor is a way to deplete surges in order to balance them out. I've found that rotating PCs in the marching order throughout an adventuring day works better for gaining the most bang for the party healing surges buck.

It's ok for the Wizard to be out in front one encounter in four.
 

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It might be worth dropping a Belt of Sacrifice as treasure, and encouraging whichever character seems to end the day with surplus surges to wear it. As well as providing a slight but noticeable boost to all surge-based healing, it'll let them boost one ally with an extra surge to help keep them standing during the final encounter of the day.
 


After reading some bits and pieces of posts about peoples epic dungeon delve and their stringing encounters together for tougher ones. I looked and my game and noticed that pretty much every encounter was costing at least half the party 3+ surges.

As a great many party members do not have more than 6, this limits our sane adventuring time to 3 encounters or, alternatively, only one milestone.

Is this typical? What kind of surge usage do other games run across in mid heroic (4-6) levels?

Two things to take into account here:

1) Party composition and strategy.
2) Level.

For 1, do you have any defenders? Are they tanking properly? Do monsters ignore them and focus on the "squishies" anyway? Are your PCs properly optimized, so no fighters with a starting Strength of 13? Do you have the right amount of magic items? Are you using AP?

For 2, as you gain more powers with level (or after you start subbing powers, gaining more powerful powers with level), enemies drop faster.

In short, the issue might not be the game rules. Of course, in 3.x a 1st-level party couldn't achieve the expected 4 encounters per day, and you have to expect some variance with level in 4e as well.
 

As a great many party members do not have more than 6, this limits our sane adventuring time to 3 encounters or, alternatively, only one milestone.

I'm curious, what classes are we talking about? The lowest amount of surges in my group is 8 - admittedly a group with two warlocks, a warforged fighter and no pure Controller, but the Monk and the Druid|Warlord hybrid still rock 8 surges. 6 sounds low unless we're talking about a group with several Wizards or something.
 

The 4th level party I'm a player in can easily get 4-5 encounters per extended rest and that's with a runepriest as the the leader (which is far from the most efficient healer). This is somewhat mitigated by the paladin as one of the defenders though.

The 7th level party I DM for just went through 6 encounters without an extended rest. They were quite depleted at the end, but managed.

Finally, the paragon level party I DM for (11th level) can easily do 4 - 7, including occasionally running a couple of those together. Of course, by that level, the pally has a lot of surgeless healing to offer and they have a number of magic items to help in that area, mainly because they were without a leader for a long time.

As said above, it largely depends on a) make up, b) level, c) tactics and d) items.
 

I'm curious, what classes are we talking about? The lowest amount of surges in my group is 8 - admittedly a group with two warlocks, a warforged fighter and no pure Controller, but the Monk and the Druid|Warlord hybrid still rock 8 surges. 6 sounds low unless we're talking about a group with several Wizards or something.

Shoot, my 4th-level eladrin psion in Dark Sun has 8 surges; 6 base, + 1 for Con of 12, and +1 from Autohypnosis.

Honestly, while Con isn't the uber-stat it was back in 3e, it's still a very good stat, especially if you don't need Str, since it extends your durability significantly.

In our Dark Sun game, the thri-kreen monk tends to use a lot of surges, while the mul fighter uses slightly less. The revenant assassin, the dragonborn warlock, and the half-elf bard don't use nearly as many. I think my psion has used two surges in combat so far this campaign.

Brad
 

Our group does a few things to mitigate this issue:

1) We rotate our PCs around. In yesterday's game, we had 3 roleplaying sessions, 1 skill challenge, and 3 combat encounters. In the 3 combat encounters, the 5th level PC Wizard used up 1 healing surge out of 8 (15 Con) in the first 2 encounters. So, we put her up front in the third encounter and put our defender/striker in the rear. This was a particularly nasty encounter with minions doing 12 points of damage if they hit and also getting a free standard action when they died (which they used to charge), so she ended up using 3 healing surges. She now has 4 healing surges out of 8. On the other hand, the one striker and the striker/defender both now have 6 out of 9 due to not getting attacked as often in that encounter. Usually, they average using up 1.5 to 2 surges per encounter (typically having about 4 healing surges remaining after 3 encounters), they are currently averaging 1 surge used per encounter. It's a way to shift the Controller's (and the Leader's) healing surges to the other 3 PCs who end up taking the brunt of the attacks during the day.

2) Another thing that I do with my PC is that I often don't heal him up all of the way during a short rest if that will waste hit points. In the first encounter in yesterday's game, he was down 16 hit points. A short rest healing surge would have given him more than that but I didn't want to waste the additional hit points. In the second encounter, he got hit multiple times and got healed twice for the exact same amount of damage that he had taken, so he again ended up the encounter being 16 hit points down. Again, I did not heal him up. In the third encounter, he got hit once and a single short rest heal got him up all of the way. If I would have healed him in the first encounter, he would have used 1 healing surge in the first, 2 in the second, and 1 in the third instead of 2 in the second and 1 in the third.

This saved him one healing surge in three encounters.

Granted, this technique is a bit risky and can backfire on the player and the team overall, but I've used it quite often to good effect. It typically saves about one healing surge out of every 4 encounters (in this case, it saved 1 in 3, but that's a bit unusual).

Not all of the players in our group do this which means that we sometimes end up holing up for the day an encounter earlier than we really need to, but some players can be a bit self conscious and unwilling to be risky if their PC is not at full hit points every encounter.

3) Another thing that we do in our game is focus fire. Most players in most game do this, but there are some techniques that make it especially helpful to healing surges. We have 2 melee strikers and 1 ranged striker/defender in our group. So, both melee strikers attack the same NPC nearly every round until dead. The ranged striker, the leader, and the controller also tend to target at range the same foe as the two strikers. The controller and the ranged striker/defender also have a few ways to immobilize a few foes per encounter. So what we do is immobilize a few (hopefully strong melee) foes as early as possible. One foe then typically falls to the combined party might in round one. Instead of 5 enemies attacking the PCs in round one, it's typically only 3 or 4. In round two, it's usually a maximum of 4. So by taking out at least one foe per round, by staying spread out so that the enemies cannot get more than 2 PCs in an area attack at a time, and by preventing some of the NPCs from either attacking at all, or attacking with sometimes weaker ranged attacks, it can minimize the amount of damage that the PCs take overall. Stunned is better than immobilized, but we aren't yet at the levels to acquire that.

4) One other thing that the players can do is to not heal a heavily wounded PC, especially one with ranged attacks. If the PC goes unconscious at -10 hit points and is subsequently healed for 20 hit points, the PC has effectively gotten 30 points of healing for a 20 hit point heal. This only works if the Leader's turn occurs after the attacking foe hits and before the downed PC's turn comes up.

This is not something that most players are willing to do due to both the risk and the fact that it feels a bit like gaming the system. But, it is effective in squeezing out a few additional hit points of healing.

5) Some DMs do not allow multiple short rests with multiple healing powers used those rests, instead wanting the PCs to use multiplle healing surges up without bonuses to them. Talk your DM out of this extremely bad idea. The game is meant to be fun, not to be a way to suck down party resources out of combat.


Last year's upping of monster damage by WotC did lower the number of encounters that our groups can do from about 8 max per day to about 5 to 6 max per day. On the other hand, our group has been trying to get more efficient at group tactics and at power/feat selection.

I am playing in a PBP game where some of the players tend to work on their own more. I've seen situations where doing this results in lopsided resource usage and it doesn't work nearly as well (e.g. our PBP group has 2 Leaders with 6 total PCs and in our most recent encounter, one PC has been healed 3 times in 3 rounds (he's used up 3 surges, he'll probably use up 5 or 6 surges total in this encounter); teamwork by all team members and good tactics makes a fairly significant difference in healing surge usage).
 

I consider using two surges per encounter to an overall reasonable assumption. Melee characters, defenders, and priority targets (necromancers and undead guys really hated our radiant servant cleric) will usually use more; characters keeping at range will sometimes use less. However, encounters with more ranged enemies, area attacks, or with multi-pronged attacks that bypass the front line can hit them pretty hard too and force them to be closer to the 2 surge baseline. Obviously, defense totals, resistances, utilities, etc can impact surge usage too.

So running around with 6 surges is pretty dumb without a way to transfer surges between characters. We generally expect most characters to take Durable by level if they'd otherwise have only 6 or so surges.
 

The party in question is a human mage enchanter, a drow executioner, a changling hybrid sorceror/rogue, a human tac warlord and a... err... something humanish con battlemind. The battlemind is almost universally having 2 ish people attack him till they die. Level 4, so might be the whole low level thing.. Aside from the hybrid, everyone has taken no more than one sub-optimal feat (sub optimal for either damage or defenses, nobody has durable)

Seems people don't like con in the party, most are 10ish.
 

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