Ultimate Creatures

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Figher = ~413 levels of figher + 20 levels of monk

Full dual wielding, so that both hands get full attack progression.
Flury, for the extra attack (you are going to hit anyway!)


+100 damage weapon, 35 strength weapon (or so), +226 damage power attack = ~360 damage from power attack.

11 attacks WILL hit on a 2 or better against a mere 103 AC = ~4000 damage a round!

Potentially it could be much higher if the player really built for it. But this is high enough. 80 Strength does not seem all that out of reach for a 433 level character. A single epic buff could probably provide 40 of it. Plus those 108 lose character points to spend wherever he desires... and those +5 inheriant bonuses, and that peramantent anti-antimagic field epic spell on him = devestation to the max....

Didn't even include the hasted attack come to think of it

You seem to be forgetting the obvious here. The Fighter doesn't get any magical bonuses (because of the permanent AMF) whereas the Creature retains its DR.

It will probably be more like 1500.

However, I have addended the BAB rule to continue as per the core rules (not counting iterative attacks).

So a 433rd-level Fighter would have a BAB +433.

So it would be 4000 under my auspices...I was just curious how you did it.

I would readily agree with that. But instead of dropping it so far I am more likely to knock it down to 2/- then add an increasing Con requirement with every taking, to limit the amount the player can get his hands on.

I simply balanced it with what I would consider a CR increase of 0.2.

CR +1 = 5/-

It is certainly less minimal then 10 and 20th level, but it is still pretty big differance. Especially when you factor in feats. Besides, such a character would be loaded on permanent epic spells, and less permanent buffs.

CR 10 = EL 15
CR 20 = EL 20

CR 350 = EL 40
CR 433 = EL 41

High level epic characters are scary

Wait til you see the deities in the Immortals Handbook!

 

[Xylix]

You seem to be forgetting the obvious here. The Fighter doesn't get any magical bonuses (because of the permanent AMF) whereas the Creature retains its DR.

First I am sticking with the same way I have generated the attack bonus from the begining, An epic enhancement spell cast upon the sword.

As it is epic spells are only subject to antimagic fields of greater than the caster level, any spell delivering +100 to a sword temporarily will be cast by at minimum a 400th level caster, possibly higher. I figure the so called caster would probably be one of the fighter's bodies.

The other likely possiblity is a permanent epic anti-anti-magic field cast upon the fighter, by a 41st or higher caster, once again probably MUCH higher.

Such a spell is quite likely VERY reasonable as one persumes a epic spell can negate a petty 6th level one.


If the figher does not have access to epic spells by now we may as well name him corpse....

That would be for ANY correct 400 CR encounter

However, I have addended the BAB rule to continue as per the core rules (not counting iterative attacks).

So a 433rd-level Fighter would have a BAB +433.

That would also do it, however I personally am against that rule. There are good reasons for limiting BAB progression beyond 20th level, mainly to prevent the horrendous speration between wizard and figher, effectively rendering a wizard useless.

Over 400 hunderd levels, either every creature is getting ultimate powerattacks, or is unhittable to anyone but the wizard....

Personally, I would probably have used a logorithim at this point, or some other similar pattern to slow the progression more and more as you move along.

CR 10 = EL 15
CR 20 = EL 20

CR 350 = EL 40
CR 433 = EL 41

You are underestimating the impact of 80 levels. This generates higher BAB, which equals greater damage.

It generates higher AC, which equal less damage taken

It generates higher HP, which equals longer life.

Finally it generates more feats which is another power boost.


The power increase of players beyond 20th is still exponential, it is just a smaller curve. 350th and 433rd are about as comparable as 15th and 20th. There should be no way an intelligent 433rd could lose to a 350th. The differance in power is just too incredible.

That is without factoring in the magic item power differance, another power progression.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Xylix!

First I am sticking with the same way I have generated the attack bonus from the begining, An epic enhancement spell cast upon the sword.

As it is epic spells are only subject to antimagic fields of greater than the caster level, any spell delivering +100 to a sword temporarily will be cast by at minimum a 400th level caster, possibly higher. I figure the so called caster would probably be one of the fighter's bodies.

The other likely possiblity is a permanent epic anti-anti-magic field cast upon the fighter, by a 41st or higher caster, once again probably MUCH higher.

Such a spell is quite likely VERY reasonable as one persumes a epic spell can negate a petty 6th level one.

If the figher does not have access to epic spells by now we may as well name him corpse....

That would be for ANY correct 400 CR encounter

Potentially.

That would also do it, however I personally am against that rule. There are good reasons for limiting BAB progression beyond 20th level, mainly to prevent the horrendous speration between wizard and figher, effectively rendering a wizard useless.

I proved (in another thread) that the difference at 30th-level had already passed beyond 20 (the d20 range).

The reason for allowing BAB progression as per the Core Rules was to balance Fighters (in particular) against Dragons; Magical Beasts; Monstrous Humanoids and Outsiders.

Over 400 hunderd levels, either every creature is getting ultimate powerattacks, or is unhittable to anyone but the wizard....

Try not to apply the Psuedo-natural Template here as de rigeur.

Definately one of the problems is hardness gained from the damage reduction feat though.

Personally, I would probably have used a logorithim at this point, or some other similar pattern to slow the progression more and more as you move along.

I have that in the CR/EL rules.

You are underestimating the impact of 80 levels. This generates higher BAB, which equals greater damage.

It generates higher AC, which equal less damage taken

It generates higher HP, which equals longer life.

Finally it generates more feats which is another power boost.

Higher AC won't necessarily protect you.

Higher hp won't necessarily protect you.

More Feats may or may not protect you.

The power increase of players beyond 20th is still exponential, it is just a smaller curve.

Exactly!

350th and 433rd are about as comparable as 15th and 20th. There should be no way an intelligent 433rd could lose to a 350th. The differance in power is just too incredible.

Yes it could, try to think laterally. The number of one-hit kill effects at either level is going to be ridiculous.

That is without factoring in the magic item power differance, another power progression.

Another debate in itself!

 

[Xylix]

I proved (in another thread) that the difference at 30th-level had already passed beyond 20 (the d20 range).

The reason for allowing BAB progression as per the Core Rules was to balance Fighters (in particular) against Dragons; Magical Beasts; Monstrous Humanoids and Outsiders.

Doesn't mean you should dump the relation entirely. Without dumping it it is entirely possibly to correct this problem with the correct feats. I figure if you want more attack bonus take the feat that grants +1 ad infinitum.

Or get more strength.

The reason for allowing BAB progression as per the Core Rules was to balance Fighters (in particular) against Dragons; Magical Beasts; Monstrous Humanoids and Outsiders.

The fighter is still doing just fine.

+1/2 level BAB
~+1/4 level weapon +
+1/8th level Strength

= 7/8ths level attack bonus progression. The fighter gets plenty. Heck, if he pushes it he will still outstrip the poor wizard, however the wizard can TRY to keep up.

Where as with you it would be flat impossible.

Higher AC won't necessarily protect you.

30 more AC = 30 less power attack = 30 less damage an attack = 150 to 300 less damage a round.

For 80 levels 40 AC increase is not at all unreasonable. That could be a potential of 10% damage reduction, ignoring feats and other increases.

Higher hp won't necessarily protect you.

Against most attacks it will. The majority of D&D still falls on direct damage attacks. Sure there are save and die, but for half of this you only need an epic version of death ward, nullifing all magical death effects, permanetly.

Shouldn't even be all that hard.

Toss in a slew more epic immunities and you are set.

More Feats may or may not protect you.

Depends on what you take, they can quite easily provide massive protection.

Yes it could, try to think laterally. The number of one-hit kill effects at either level is going to be ridiculous.

Yes, but most of them should only have 0% to 15% activation chances, so combat will still last just as long. For the 80 levels higher dude it will probably by a flat 5% for all of the 350ths level guy. While number 350 will have 25% to 95% chance of suffering the effects.

These death chances vary on the character.

 

[Bill Muench]

Hey, finally someone who can hit Super-Duper AC Man.

Maybe I'll upgrade Super-Duper AC Man to Epic Levels and see how high I can jack his AC at, say, 100th level...

Nice work!