Umbral Template in Dragon too powerful?

[Knight Otu]

Did they change the Umbral template that much in the new Dragon?

According to Savage Species, it should lose all natural attacks, and gain a single incorporeal touch. Also, they should lose all their special attacks, which would include spellcasting ability.

 

[Scion]

exactly, what are the changes? and what is the CR boost?

That great wyrm red dragon is already CR 26! If the CR boost is something like +6 then we are talking a CR 32 encounter, of course it is going to be big and deadly in lots of nasty ways!!

Oh, and remember, incoporeal creatures cant see through solid objects. This is a big factor for 'hiding in the walls'. Since they dont interact with matter very well, it would seem to me that it would be very difficult for them to 'hear' as well. Which means you are pretty much down to magical methods of detection, which the party should have ways around or to notice.. and that is assuming that the magical means can penetrate the barrier you are imposing on yourself anyway.

 

[Sejs]

That great wyrm red dragon is already CR 26! If the CR boost is something like +6 then we are talking a CR 32 encounter, of course it is going to be big and deadly in lots of nasty ways!!

-Sorta-. The umbral template would change the nature of the beast by quite a lot. I'm working off the assumption that it's more or less the same as the umbral template from SS, mind you. If it is, the dragon is giving up a sizeable chunk of their natural abilities in exchange for the template abilities.

Gives up its massive natural armor bonus in exchange for a deflection bonus to ac equal to its charisma mod. That's a loss of about 30 ac, right there.

Ability to use magic items? Gone; it's incorporeal, so the only items it could activate are ghost-touch items.

No con score, and no change in hit die type. Dragons and undead are both d12 creatures - all of a sudden the colossal red dragon goes from being 40d12+400 (avg 660hp) to 40d12 (avg 260hp).

Can't snatch, can't grapple. Two of a dragon's mainstay abilities are taken out of the equation, right there. The umbral dragon can no longer play the "neutralize your friend and run away, what'cha gonna do now smart guy?" game.

Loses every special attack of the base creature. No breath weapon, no frightful presence, no spell-like abilities.

Loses the large suite of natural attacks a dragon normally gets in exchange for "an incorporeal touch attack". Attack, singular. As in one.

 

[Derulbaskul]

The CR for the templated creature should be its "true" CR remembering that many of the CRs for dragons are simply incorrect. Also, (IMO) any party of 17th or 18th level should really be walking around with foresight cast and that should give them the necessary warning that death wards are required.

 

[Particle_Man]

The CR for the templated creature should be its "true" CR remembering that many of the CRs for dragons are simply incorrect. Also, (IMO) any party of 17th or 18th level should really be walking around with foresight cast and that should give them the necessary warning that death wards are required.

1) Foresight lasts 10 minutes/lvl. Even a high level group would need to cast a lot of them, especially as each one only affects one person.
2) Foresight stops you from being surprised and allows you time for one action, tops, (presumably either to cast deathward on yourself or to warn the attacked person under your foresight to cast deathward on herself -- assuming that person can even cast deathward). If that action is casting deathward, that at best protects one person, tops. What do you do next round if the umbral dragon wins initiative and targets someone that is not deathwarded yet?
3) Reading over the article, I see that the umbral colossal creature would only gain one attack/rd, which alleviates some of my worries (good catch Sejs). It would not be a tpk. It would be a one round kill (and undeadification) of the weakest character(s) not protected by the one deathward the party has time to set up, however. 14 str loss (average) on the party mage or rogue...bye-bye! And heaven help you if it has Spring Attack and decides to attack and hide in the walls/floor.
4) There is still the problem of the nearly unhittable fine umbral critter. 1 str per round, and how would you even find a "shadow creature" that small?

 

[Scion]

Same way you find anything else that small.

Also, there is no CR change? So we are looking at a CR 26 encounter that is going to be deadly for a 17 - 18th level party?

I am still failing to see the problem

It sounds like you are wanting the umbral creature to either attack through the floor (nearly impossible, I would go so far as to say impossible under nearly every circumstance) or move through a few party members in order to attack whichever one the creature 'thinks' is the weakest. Then they have to roll a touch attack (probably trivial, but it is still there) and then have to bypass any defenses (of which they may be a few, especially at these levels) and then have to roll for str drain (which may very well hit some number under their str score).

Sounds like a big list of ifs.. and with one attack a round, and then the whole party wailing on the guy with no con score.. well.. sounds like he is in trouble!