Un-solo-ing Dragons (My Players Stay Out, please!)

[Mathew_Freeman]

So, I've got this crazy idea about throwing 3 Dragons at a 16th level party, given that I have three Dragon mini's.

I made up an appropriate 16th level encounter using a Red, a White and a Green Dragon, and did a playtest one morning, and whilst it was a dangerous fight it was, frankly, boring. The Dragons took forever to die, and they weren't doing enough damage to feel really threatening. I need a 16th or 17th level encounter, containing one of each, levels adjusted from the MM entries.

So here's my question - how do I make the Dragons into Elites instead of Solo's? My thinking is that as three Elite monsters, I can make them much higher level. This in turn means they're more likely to hit, will do more damage but will not take so long to die.

All help appreciated! I'm guessing the simple thing to do is to give them 2/5ths normal hit points, take away an action point, and drop the saving through bonus to +2, but should I be aware of anything else, like changes in attack bonuses or defenses?

I'm also thinking of including the +half level damage bonus that gets talked about, as Dragons do do a bit less damage than I'd like (see the thread in this very forum for details).

 

[fissionessence]

Well you could grab dragonkin from MM or Draconomicon and make elite versions, then call them dragons. If you turn solo dragons into elite versions, make sure to take away some of their free multiple attacks, as the solo versions are supposed to have an entire party's of monsters amount of attacks.

~

 

[IanB]

Draconomicon has some regular and elite dragons - example would be the pact dragon that githyanki ride around on, which is a normal level 13 skirmisher. Take that, maybe give it a template, bump it up a couple levels, then do variants with powers from the other colors.

It will take a little tinkering but that's the route I'd take rather than trying to de-solo the MM dragons.

 

[keterys]

Check out the dragon wyrmlings in draconomicon and compare to the closest dragon - adjust upwards in levels and add in an ability or two to make up the difference (aura, lure, what have you)

And yeah, three elites like that will probably be a much more fun fight than 3 low level solos.

 

[Pale Jackal]

I'm also thinking of including the +half level damage bonus that gets talked about, as Dragons do do a bit less damage than I'd like (see the thread in this very forum for details).

Is that just for solos? I was considering doing -25% HP, +level in bonus damage per hit. Seems to be a fairly equal trade in HP and damage, assuming 50% to hit and a 10 round fight for the few dragons I looked at. Though maybe it wouldn't work for other monsters, since dragons get the bonus damage twice with their double claw attacks. Low level dragons (specifically, the Young White, seems to have a greater disparity than I'd like, but if I really cared, I'd do Level + 1 bonus damage, but I don't think there are that many low level solos to worry about.) Assuming, of course, that insufficient damage and excessively long fights are the problem. This would be coupled with Elric's Saving Throw tweak.

Actually, on second thought, I suppose I should be comparing whether or not there is a 25% increase in damage. Then again, party damage per round is higher at the beginning of the fight, so I suppose it should be something like 30%. Argh!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well you could grab dragonkin from MM or Draconomicon and make elite versions, then call them dragons. If you turn solo dragons into elite versions, make sure to take away some of their free multiple attacks, as the solo versions are supposed to have an entire party's of monsters amount of attacks.

~

By the way, if you don't have the Dracomonicom, the DDI Compendium might be of use.

Generally you would need to remove one action point, the saving throw bonus, and reduce a defense by 2 points, and then remove approximately half the hit points. If the dragon has any at-will immediate reaction/interrupt attacks, or the ability to make two (or more) attacks per round, remove one of them. (You might keep one of them around as an encounter or recharge ability or so?)
You might also want to reduce the Recharge Rate of the breath weapon or any other standard attack power.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

By the way, if you don't have the Dracomonicom, the DDI Compendium might be of use.

Generally you would need to remove one action point, the saving throw bonus, and reduce a defense by 2 points, and then remove approximately half the hit points. If the dragon has any at-will immediate reaction/interrupt attacks, or the ability to make two (or more) attacks per round, remove one of them. (You might keep one of them around as an encounter or recharge ability or so?)
You might also want to reduce the Recharge Rate of the breath weapon or any other standard attack power.

That's some excellent advice, right there - thanks.

I'll have a look at some of the Draconomicon stuff as I hadn't considered it before, and I think I'll keep all of the dragons current attacks and abilities, but put some recharges on some of them to make them less usuable round-by-round.

Breath weapons are staying exactly as they are, though, as I'm thinking that having the dragons damage each other with those is going to be something the PC's (if they're smart) can use to their own advantage by luring the dragons close in to each other.

 

[KarinsDad]

In my campaign, I add a magical class template like Cleric or Wizard to each of my dragons.

4E dragons have no real magic. They are just big bricks (using a Champions term) that can handle a lot of damage.

Since you are having problems with them having too many hit points, I would not go the Cleric route since the Dragon could then heal itself.

But the additional flavor of things like throwing Flaming Sphere at the PCs is a lot of fun. The players start wetting their pants when their own nasty tricks are thrown back at them.

Having 3 lower level dragons, all of them casting spells as well as using their own semi-formidable normal attacks would be interesting, especially if the spells buff the other dragons. A Warlock Dragon, a Sorcerer Dragon, and a Wizard Dragon, as an example, would be cool.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Almost-Elder White Dragon
Large natural magical beast (dragon)
Level 17 Elite Brute XP 3200

Initiative +11 Senses Perception +16; darkvision
HP 400; Bloodied 200
AC 30; Fortitude 31, Reflex 29, Will 29
Resist 25 Cold
Saving Throws +2
Speed 8 (ice walk), fly 8 (hover), overland flight 12
Action Points 1

(bm) Bite (Standard, at-will) Cold
Reach 2; +19 vs Armor Class; 2d6+5 damage, plus ongoing 10 cold damage (save ends).

(bm) Claw (Standard, at-will)
Reach 2; +19 vs Armor Class; 1d8+5 damage.

(m) Draconic Frenzy (Standard, at-will)
The dragon makes a bite attack and a claw attack.

(r) Freezing Blast (Minor, at-will) Fear, Psychic
Ranged 10; +18 vs Ref; 1d8+2 cold damage, and the target is slowed (save ends).

Breath Weapon (Standard, encounter) Cold
Close blast 5; +18 vs Reflex; 3d10+4 cold damage, and the target is slowed and weakened (save ends both). Miss: Half damage, and the target is not slowed and weakened.

Bloodied Frenzy (Free, when first bloodied, encounter) Cold
Close burst 3; +18 vs Fortitude; 2d10+7 cold damage, and the target is dazed and takes ongoing 10 cold damage (save ends both).

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Athletics +24
Str 22 (+14) Dex 16 (+11) Wis 17 (+11)
Con 26 (+16) Int 14 (+10) Cha 14 (+10)

Based on: http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/monster.aspx?id=1449



Almost-Elder Green Dragon
Huge natural magical beast (dragon)
Level 18 Elite Controller XP 4000

Initiative +13 Senses Perception +11
Poison Aura (Poison) aura 1; any creature that enters or starts its turn in the aura takes 15 Poison damage.
HP 348; Bloodied 174
AC 32; Fortitude 30, Reflex 30, Will 30
Resist 25 poison
Saving Throws +2
Speed 10, fly 14 (hover), overland flight 18
Action Points 1

Claw (Standard, at-will) Poison
Reach 4; +23 vs Armor Class; 1d8+9 poison damage, and ongoing 10 poison damage (save ends).

Double Claw (Standard, at-will) Poison
The Almost-Elder Green Dragon makes two claw attacks.

Diseased Grab (Standard, at-will) Poison
The Almost-Elder Green Dragon makes a claw attack (see above) against a Large or smaller target. On a hit, the target slides into a square adjacent to the dragon and is grabbed (until escape). While grabbed, the target loses any resistance it has to poison. The dragon can hold up to five grabbed creatures using this power.

Deathpoison Rebuke (Minor, at-will) Poison
Ranged 10; +22 vs Will; the target is pushed 4 squares, falls prone at the end of the push, and takes ongoing 10 poison damage (save ends).

Selfish Vigor (Minor 1/round, recharge 5) Healing
The Almost-Elder Green Dragon regains 20 hit points.

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +25, Diplomacy +20, Insight +22, Intimidate +20
Str 18 (+13) Dex 26 (+17) Wis 17 (+12)
Con 22 (+15) Int 17 (+12) Cha 22 (+15)

Based on http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/monster.aspx?id=187





Almost-Adult Red Dragon
Large natural magical beast (dragon)
Level 15 Elite Soldier XP 2400

Initiative +13 Senses Perception +15; darkvision
HP 302; Bloodied 151
AC 33; Fortitude 30, Reflex 27, Will 26
Resist 20 Fire
Saving Throws +2
Speed 6, fly 8 (hover), overland flight 12
Action Points 1

Bite (Standard, at-will) Fire
Reach 3; +22 vs Armor Class; 2d8+3 damage plus 1d6 fire damage, and the target is grabbed (until escape). A dragon cannot make bite attacks while grabbing a creature, but it can use clamping jaws.

Tail Slap (Standard, at-will)
Reach 3; +22 vs Armor Class; 2d8+7 damage.

Clamping Jaws (Standard, at-will) Fire
If a dragon begins its turn with a target grabbed in its jaws, it makes an attack against the grabbed creature; +20 vs Reflex; 2d8+3 damage plus 1d6 fire damage. Miss: Half damage.

Double Attack (Standard, at-will)
The dragon eel makes two tail slap attacks.

Breath Weapon (Standard, recharges when first bloodied) Fire
The dragon targets up to two creatures with its fire breath; the first target must be within 10 squares of the dragon , and the second target within 10 squares of the first; +18 vs Reflex; 2d12+10 fire damage. Miss: Half damage.

Swallow (Standard, encounter) Fire
The dragon attempts to swallow a bloodied Medium or smaller creature it is grabbing; +21 vs Fortitude; on a hit, the target is swallowed and restrained (no saving throw) and takes 10 damage plus 10 fire damage on subsequent rounds at the start of the dragon's turn. The swallowed creature can make melee basic attacks only, and only with one-handed or natural weapons. If the dragon dies, any creature trapped in its gullet can escape as a move action, ending that action in a square formerly occupied by the dragon eel.

Alignment Evil Languages Common, Draconic
Skills Bluff +14, Insight +15, Intimidate +19
Str 25 (+14) Dex 19 (+11) Wis 16 (+10)
Con 22 (+13) Int 13 (+8) Cha 14 (+9)

Based on: http://www.wizards.com/dndinsider/compendium/monster.aspx?id=1443


Total XP: 9,600 Level 17 Encounter.