unarmed combat question

[Dagredhel]

Hi there.

I can't figure out how unarmed combat works in d20.

This is the part of the SRD that is giving me trouble:

Nonlethal damage does not affect the target’s hit points. Instead, compare the amount of nonlethal damage from an attack to the target’s Constitution score. If the amount is less than the target’s Constitution score, the target is unaffected by the attack. If the damage equals or exceeds the target’s Constitution score, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). If the target succeeds on the save, the target is dazed for 1 round. If the target fails, he or she is knocked unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds.

What I don't understand is how most characters are ever going to inflict damage equal to or in excess of even an average Con score, even on a critical hit.

Could someone help me out?

 

[takyris]

Sure. It looks difficult at first, but there are a number of factors that make it pretty easy.

Let's start with a Strong Hero. Give him a strength of 16. At first level, he takes Brawl and Power Attack as his feats, and Melee Smash as his class talent. At second level, he takes Streetfighting as his bonus feat. At third level, he takes Improved Brawl as his feat and Improved Melee Smash as his class talent. At fourth level, he takes Weapon Focus (Unarmed) as his bonus feat and raises his Strength to 17 (which doesn't affect the numbers now, but at eighth level, he gets nasty).

So let's do a Play-by-Numbers:

Strong1:
BAB +1
Str 16: +3 to attacks, damage
Brawl: 1d6 nonlethal, +1 competence bonus to hit on unarmed attacks
Power Attack: Option to take penalty to hit and do more damage.
Melee Smash: +1 to damage.

Result: A character who attacks at +5 melee and does 1d6+4 damage. Right there, you've got someone who, even without a critical, could take down your average guy on a good roll. You can Power Attack to get that damage up by one -- and don't forget to charge.

Strong2:
BAB+2
Streetfighting: +1d4 damage on one unarmed attack per round

Result: A character who attacks at +6 melee and does 1d6+1d4+4 with each nonlethal hit. Right there, you COULD threaten to knock out a fairly tough person (Con14).

Strong3:
BAB+3
Improved Melee Smash: +2 damage on melee attacks, rather than +1
Improved Brawl: 1d8 damage, not 1d6, and +2 to hit, not +1

Result: A character who attacks at +8 melee and does 1d8+1d4+5 -- up to 17 points of nonlethal damage on a given hit. For a tough customer, you can Power Attack, since you've got so many nice bonuses from Strength and Improved Brawl that you'll still hit more often than not.

Strong4:
BAB+4
Weapon Focus(unamred): +1 to hit

Result: A character who attacks at +10 melee and does 1d8+1d4+5, before power attacking. Given that you only have one attack per round -- and given that since the damage threshold is per attack and not per hit, you only care about getting that first hit in -- there's no reason not to Power Attack. Use charging, use flanking, yell for one of your buddies to Aid you in your attack, and so forth.

Sure, you might not be knocking an Ogre unconscious on every hit, but for a fourth-level character, that's not bad.

-Tacky

 

[Dagredhel]

Thank you very much, Tacky.

You're response was very interesting and informative reading. Having scanned the feats, the Strong Hero basic class and the Martial Artist advanced class in the d20 Modern SRD, I had figured that there were ways to jack up a character's damage potential.

I definitely didn't realize it could be accomplished at such low level, if one were trying to max it out. You're breakdown was enlightening. Modern characters pick up feats/talents fast!

(They don't get a feat every three levels in addition to there bonus class feats, do they?)

But, what about the character who isn't maxed out for unarmed combat damage dealing potential? That was whom I meant by "most characters," the unarmed-combat-machine being the exception.

I'm picturing two smart/charismatic/dedicated heroes trading ineffectual blows for an hour to no effect.

So, unarmed combat works for the maxed-out brawler or martial artist. What about the other guys? It seems like they'd have to eat the attack penalty and go for lethal damage to make their unarmed attacks count.

Am I wrong?

 

[takyris]

Hey Dagredhel,

Yep, Modern characters get two feats at first level, and then a feat at every character level divisible by three. As a result, they've got a LOT of feats by level 20. The class bonus feats are limited enough that it's still nice to have those "pick any feat" feats at 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc., though.

As far as non-combat optimized people, yeah, that gets to be a toughie. I think that there's a sort of different philosophy in d20 Modern, though -- in a sense, it's more realistic. It's HARD to knock somebody unconscious without ANY possibility of them being permanently injured. All those TV shows that have the heroes getting knocked out and then waking up tied to a chair just fine and dandy a few hours later have given people the incorrect idea that getting knocked unconscious isn't something to worry about. Unless it's a careful shot delivered by a professional, getting knocked unconscious almost always has SOME risk of severe damage.

So the d20 folks have made nonlethal stuff a fair amount harder to get off, but at the same time, they've made all that massive damage crunchiness much less lethal. A character who gets taken to -1 hit points isn't really likely to die -- he's got ten rounds of Fort saves to stabilize himself. Whereas in D&D, getting taken to negative hit points meant "You dead, mon!", in d20 Modern, it means "Unconscious, and with some danger of dying."

With that philosophy, I'd say that most non-optimized people pretty much suck it up and take that -4 to hit for lethal damage. If you've got buddies, have them flank, and THEN have them use Aid Another to give you a bonus to hit. A non-optimized person might still take Power Attack -- which in D&D was "feat that the monsters took to use and the players took in order to get great cleave", but in d20 Modern is now "feat that you take if you want to get past someone's damage threshold".

But yeah, basically, you're right. Unless you have at least one or two feats, like Brawl and Power Attack, you don't stand much chance. If you DO take Brawl and Power Attack, you're most of the way there. Or, you could take Combat Martial Arts and Power Attack.

Take a pair Dedicated6 (just choosing one randomly). This hero has gotten in enough fights that he wants to know what to do, but he's mostly a psychology specialist. He's taken Combat Martial Arts, and because he wants to hit people HARD and not wear them down with jabs, he takes Power Attack -- although he's not a good enough fighter for it to be worth it to use it a bunch. That means that (assume a strength of 13), he attacks at +5 and does 1d4+1 damage. Not really a powerhouse. On the other hand, if he has an identical twin buddy, he can use his Improved Aid Another to give his buddy a +3 to hit, and if he's flanking, that +3 goes to +5. The buddy can now Power Attack without fear of blowing his attack, since he's at such a nice bonus, and assuming that he maxes out his power attack to +4, his base attack bonus, he does 1d4+5 points of lethal damage. Do that a few times, you're going to see a 20 -- and that 20 is your damage threshold breaker.

I dunno -- maybe even just using Combat Martial Arts and Power Attack is too much of a min-maxy strategy. I think, though, that d20 Modern is getting closer to real life in that it really IS possible to have characters who just can't fight AT ALL, but who are very good at other things. It's possible to have a dedicated lockpicker and sneak who took every "bonus to skills" feat in the book and therefore has no combat feats whatsoever. And yeah, that guy's toast if it comes to a fight, no question. If you want someone to be able to fight, they're gonna have to buy a feat or two. But given the number of feats you get, including your starting two, your class bonus feats, your normal character feats, and even possible bonus feats from your occupation (Athletes can take Brawl for free, while Law Enforcement folks can take Firearm Proficiency for free), feats are a lot easier to come by.

-Tacky, rambling a bit...

 

[Mistwell]

An additional factor:

Brass knuckles + Brawl feat = 1d6+1 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl = 1d8+1 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl + Knockout Punch= 2d8+2 nonlethal
Brass knuckles + Improved Brawl + Improved KO Punch = 3d8+3 nonlethal

 

[Dagredhel]

Thank you again, Tacky, very much.

I think I'd still prefer to see subdual damage with some form of Vitality and Wound points, but at least I've got the gist of it now.

Reading your last post, it also dawned on me that the unarmed combat mechanic in d20 parallels the massive damage rule for lethal combat, so there is some symmetry there, which is nice.

Thanks!

 

[Spatula]

Whereas in D&D, getting taken to negative hit points meant "You dead, mon!", in d20 Modern, it means "Unconscious, and with some danger of dying."

Huh? It means the same in both games. d20 Modern replaced D&D's flat 10% stabilization chance with a DC 20 Fort save, but D&D also has ready access to healing magic, which automatically stabilizes a dying character.

With that philosophy, I'd say that most non-optimized people pretty much suck it up and take that -4 to hit for lethal damage.

This is what bothers me about d20 Modern's system. In the modern world there are serious consequences for killing people, and it's harder to get away with it. Characters shouldn't be so quick to resort to lethal force as they are in D&D. But your options are non-extistant unless you're focused on hand-to-hand. Saps are worthless in d20 Modern, because a normal person still can't do enough damage to force the unconscious check (except on a crit, and even then chances are slim), and a brawler is already doing at least the sap's d6 damage.

 

[takyris]

Yo, Spatuman,

I think we have a difference of interpretation. You see "doing normal damage" as "using lethal force". I don't.

You're completely correct on the stabilization chance in D&D. Thing is, though, in D&D, it was always just a 10% chance. In Modern, a first level character will most likely have that 10% chance (either a +0 Fort save and a 14 Con, or a +1 Fort save and a 12 Con), and it keeps getting better each level. You're far more likely to stabilize in Modern than you were in D&D.

So if my PCs came upon a goon and he started to fight, I'd be fine with them using normal damage, and even using weapons:

They whack him with a baseball bat. In fact, they give him a critical crack that beats his damage threshold, and he blows his Fort save. Bad guy drops to the floor at -1. PCs lift up his eyelid, check the bruise, and say, "He'll have a heck of a headache when he wakes up. We prop up his head, leave an icepack in his hand, and keep going."

Yes, according to the rules, there was a chance he could have died. But if they took the time to give him a look, I'm fine, as the GM, giving them an out that simulates your average action movie.

By the same token, I'm fine with "shooting him in the leg", which isn't going to kill the bad guy (unless the hero was shooting with a .45) but will incapacitate them. I wouldn't allow it in the middle of a fight, since that's targetted body area damage, but I'd be fine letting them choose to do that once the bad guy had been subdued.

Nonlethal damage is good for short-term knockouts -- you'll note that the duration of a knockout is 1d4+1 rounds, though. That means that you get knocked out for 12 to 30 seconds. That's not "They wake up an hour or so later, tied to a chair" damage. That's "Boy, that last one rattled his brains a bit" damage. Tied-to-a-chair damage, the type of damage that puts a character out of commission for an hour or more, is lethal damage. It's just been made much easier to recover from, because not everyone is playing in campaigns with magic and making a new character every session isn't much fun.

Essentially, it's unlikely that anyone in a d20 Modern campaign is going to die unless a) They're dealing with something that can take them to -10 or lower in a single hit or b) They're dealing with bad guys who finish off helpless opponents. If a bad guy knocks them to -1 hit points and then throws their sorry butts out into the alley behind the building, the players aren't going to die. They're gonna wake up awhile later feeling absolutely horrible, but they're not gonna die.

-Tacky

 

[Mistwell]

Actually, you can just take 20 on a stabalize check for the dying opponant and that's it - they will not die, and will eventually come around (yes, with a headache).

 

[takyris]

Misty (wait -- do you hate being called Misty? I think I remember calling you Misty before and it ticked you off, but I do that to everyone's name, and I can't be sure if it was you...) MISTWELL,

Can you really take 20 on stabilizing someone? I figured that since it takes a round to make the check, and they only have ten rounds at the outside, you couldn't take 20.

If you wanted to make games less lethal, you could always add more to the negatives as a house rule. Make it -20 instead of -10, but that anyone below -10 is in a coma and requires weeks, not days, to get better.

To make it easier at one end and more difficult at the other end, you could also make the stabilization and recovery saves start easier and get progressively more difficult with respect to The Hole (how deep you're in the negatives). Say that the Fort save DC for someone is equal to 15+(however deep they're in the hole). That means that the guy at -1 has a save DC of 16, while a guy at -9 has a save DC of 24. You could even House Rule Treat Injury checks in a similar way, setting the DC to 10+(the hole). That lets ordinary people Take Ten on someone they've just knocked unconscious and ensure that they don't kill anyone unless they really really want to.

-Tacky