Unarmed Defender: How Would You Build It?

[LuckyAdrastus]

I don't only care about DPR, but it is one of my higher considerations. My intent is not to aim for striker level damage with piles of bonuses -- defenders don't do that as well as other roles/classes -- but at least have a respectable base damage score.

I had a Warforged Warden that dealt 1d10 as his weapon base and my Dragonborn Fighter deals 2d6 Brutal damage, so I'm obviously not trying to minmax their damage, but I don't like running around with d6s and d8s unless I have a meaningful static bonus to complement it.

Still, I'm pretty fine with the Brawler Fighter concept if it means lockdown with a grab flavor to it.

These are fair considerations.

Another factor to consider is that a brawler may have a low attack bonus, based on how you build it. The bladeling brawler I've seen for several sessions has a very low attack bonus. 16 Strength and 18 Dex (the bladelings don't get a strength bonus) and a +2 proficiency weapon (spiked gauntlets) with no fighter weapon talent for one handed weapons gives the PC an attack bonus of +5 vs. AC at 1st level, which is about as low as it gets. The guy misses a lot.

There are ways to fix it (18 Str, or even 20 with the right race) and a +3 proficiency weapon. However those options take you away from the "unarmed concept" since the higher weapon proficiency bonus requires something like a longsword, and the higher Strength means your Dex likely wont be high enough for you to stay in hide armor.

 

[ourchair]

Another factor to consider is that a brawler may have a low attack bonus, based on how you build it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm unsure of whether a 'low attack bonus' a function of the archetype itself (gauntlets/unarmed possessing low proficiency bonuses, etc.) or just something that's really customization-specific?

I imagine the only thing holding the brawler back compared to other fellow fighters is the lack of the STR bonus (solvable by dump-statting) and the lack of a 'weapon talent' bonus. That means that the same build on a STR-gifted race would merely be losing out on 1 pt of BAB (the weapon talent).

There are ways to fix it (...) However those options take you away from the "unarmed concept" since the higher weapon proficiency bonus requires something like a longsword, and the higher Strength means your Dex likely wont be high enough for you to stay in hide armor.

I'm willing to make compromises for optimization purpose. The idea behind the character is that he's in an armor-vessel for his essence, so my DM and I are perfectly fine with letting fluff overrule crunch.

I think the best option for it to be still 'fair' fluff-wise is to say that he's wielding Battlefists which, when houseruled in mean that the character will wield +3 prof bonus and 1d8 damage as a mace weapon. Since the Battlefists aren't really fully statted out weapons, just options for a Self-Forged Artificer, they don't synergize with feats you'd think they would.

 

[LuckyAdrastus]

The low attack bonus is because [1] they lack fighter weapon talent (+1 attack), [2] spiked gauntlets "only" have a +2 proficiency bonus, and [3] if you want to stick to hide armor, you can only afford a 16 strength, pre-racial (-1 attack compared to 18).

So if you compared spiked gauntlets (+2), 16 Strength (+3), no fighter weapon talent (+0) brawler, to a weapon talent(+1), 18 strength (+4), fullblade wielder (+3), you get +5 vs. AC for the brawler, +8 for the weapon talent fighter. If the race has a strength boost, it is +6 vs. AC, and +9 vs. AC.

This isn't a flaw with the brawler, just a question of trade-offs. Since you are playing a warforged (str bonus) and don't seem to mind wearing heavy armor (it may even fit your concept better) that already means you can pretty easily afford to start with 18+2 Strength. You have to miss out on fighter weapon talent (though you get other stuff in exchange), and you either have to use spiked guantlets, or re-fluff a +3 proficiency weapon.

With spiked guantlets, you'll start with a +7 versus AC (assuming a 20 strength), which is very solid (I think +6 is about average). Re-fluff a +3 weapon and you'll have +8.

Note that sticking with spiked guantlets has a benefit you can't re-fluff, which is that both your hands count as empty, so you can grab two guys at once.

 

[Lord Ernie]

While this isn't exactly what you're looking for, I was working on possible character ideas for level 11 characters a while back, and made this dwarf Brawler based on a Neverwinter Nights 2 character:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Khelgar Ironfist, level 11
Dwarf, Fighter, Dreadnought
Build: Brawling Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Unarmed)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 27 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
HP: 101 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +9, Endurance +18, Athletics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +4, Thievery +8

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Brawler Guard
Level 4: Inescapable Hold
Level 6: Brutal Brawler
Level 8: Pin Down
Level 10: Wrenching Grasp (retrained to Crushing Pin at Level 11)
Level 11: Dwarven Durability
Feat User Choice: Versatile Expertise
Feat User Choice: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Grappling Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Takedown Attack
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Forceful Drag
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Makeshift Shield
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bare-Knuckled Rebuke
Fighter utility 10: Body Shield (Fighter)

ITEMS
Dwarven Wyvernscale Armor +3, Withering Craghammer +3, Amulet of Life +2, Withering Spiked gauntlet +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Note that in our campaign, we get the expertise and defense feats for free, so that frees up a few feat slots. A true unarmed build would lose the Craghammer (and thus some damage), but it's certainly not unattainable.

I especially like some of the higher-level utility powers, since they are both powerful and very flavorful. Body Shield lets you play Bugbear Strangler for one attack, and bare-knucked rebuke makes me imagine myself being in Discworld's "The Mended Drum".

 

[ourchair]

Question: While an enemy is grabbed, can you attack other enemies?

While this isn't exactly what you're looking for, I was working on possible character ideas for level 11 characters a while back, and made this dwarf Brawler based on a Neverwinter Nights 2 character:

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Khelgar Ironfist, level 11
Dwarf, Fighter, Dreadnought
Build: Brawling Fighter
Fighter: Combat Agility
Fighter Talents: Brawler Style
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Hammer)
Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Unarmed)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 21, Con 16, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 9.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 13, Dex 13, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8.


AC: 29 Fort: 27 Reflex: 22 Will: 19
HP: 101 Surges: 14 Surge Value: 28

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +9, Endurance +18, Athletics +15

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +8, Arcana +5, Bluff +4, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +8, Heal +6, History +5, Insight +6, Nature +6, Perception +6, Religion +5, Stealth +8, Streetwise +4, Thievery +8

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level 2: Brawler Guard
Level 4: Inescapable Hold
Level 6: Brutal Brawler
Level 8: Pin Down
Level 10: Wrenching Grasp (retrained to Crushing Pin at Level 11)
Level 11: Dwarven Durability
Feat User Choice: Versatile Expertise
Feat User Choice: Paragon Defenses

POWERS
Fighter at-will 1: Dual Strike
Fighter at-will 1: Grappling Strike
Fighter encounter 1: Takedown Attack
Fighter daily 1: Tempest Dance
Fighter utility 2: Forceful Drag
Fighter encounter 3: Sweeping Blow
Fighter daily 5: Rain of Steel
Fighter utility 6: Makeshift Shield
Fighter encounter 7: Come and Get It
Fighter daily 9: Bare-Knuckled Rebuke
Fighter utility 10: Body Shield (Fighter)

ITEMS
Dwarven Wyvernscale Armor +3, Withering Craghammer +3, Amulet of Life +2, Withering Spiked gauntlet +3
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

Note that in our campaign, we get the expertise and defense feats for free, so that frees up a few feat slots. A true unarmed build would lose the Craghammer (and thus some damage), but it's certainly not unattainable.

I especially like some of the higher-level utility powers, since they are both powerful and very flavorful. Body Shield lets you play Bugbear Strangler for one attack, and bare-knucked rebuke makes me imagine myself being in Discworld's "The Mended Drum".

That's actually a very neat character. I'd love to play it, but I'm not sure if I'll be using it. Still, perhaps I need a new campaign for it.... ;D As if I don't play in enough campaigns already.