Unbalanced Encounters

[Nullzone]

Rapid Combat Challenge. Look it up.

Granted, after playing 2 adventures with this set up, I have had it come up all of zero times. Either monsters obey the mark, throw out rather annoying multi-target attack, or they toss me halfway across the battlefield and dominate me.

Although, considering the DM either respects the mark, or uses tactics to try and avoid it, I guess that means I'm doing something right.

Ah, silly me, I never think to look at epic.

Still though, how are you triggering Combat Challenge and Divine Challenge at the same time? You can't usually mark with both.

 

[keterys]

I can't speak for his fighter, but I can say that my 23rd level fighter actually has divine challenge 1/enc (multiclass paladin feat), aegis of assault 1/enc (boon) and Foe Caller gauntlets (1/enc supe up a mark)... so it's entirely possible to have multiple types of triggers on an attack, in addition to combat challenge.

For example, if I divine challenge an enemy, attack and immobilize or daze it, then AP charge a different enemy... it's very likely that the enemy will be forced to break the mark, at which point - if I had rapid combat challenge - I could deal divine challenge damage, teleport them adjacent and hit them with the gauntlets, and also hit them with a combat challenge attack.

Okay, I guess I should look at that feat, though I'm not sure it'll come up more than once per encounter.

 

[Nullzone]

I can't speak for his fighter, but I can say that my 23rd level fighter actually has divine challenge 1/enc (multiclass paladin feat), aegis of assault 1/enc (boon) and Foe Caller gauntlets (1/enc supe up a mark)... so it's entirely possible to have multiple types of triggers on an attack, in addition to combat challenge.

For example, if I divine challenge an enemy, attack and immobilize or daze it, then AP charge a different enemy... it's very likely that the enemy will be forced to break the mark, at which point - if I had rapid combat challenge - I could deal divine challenge damage, teleport them adjacent and hit them with the gauntlets, and also hit them with a combat challenge attack.

Okay, I guess I should look at that feat, though I'm not sure it'll come up more than once per encounter.

These are all marks. If you use Divine Challenge, then Combat Challenge goes away. Same with Aegis, Foe Caller, etc etc etc. Marked is a condition just like any other and thus can't be stacked.

Moreover, Rapid Combat Challenge just allows the first Combat Challenge you make to not count as your IA for the round. It doesn't make the attack a No Action power, so you don't have the action economy to trigger more than one mark in the first place.

 

[Nyronus]

These are all marks. If you use Divine Challenge, then Combat Challenge goes away. Same with Aegis, Foe Caller, etc etc etc. Marked is a condition just like any other and thus can't be stacked.

Moreover, Rapid Combat Challenge just allows the first Combat Challenge you make to not count as your IA for the round. It doesn't make the attack a No Action power, so you don't have the action economy to trigger more than one mark in the first place.

Your confusing a mark for the things which trigger off of it. Certain marks have special properties or names, such as the divine challenge and aegis, but certain features, such as Combat Challenge, trigger off of an enemy being marked by you. Combat Challenge doesn't care how, when, why, or what type, merely that the triggering foe is marked, and your the one who did it. Warden's Fury is more or less identical. Lightning Rush is a similar ability, although it isn't a class feature. Furthermore, while Rapid Combat Challenge does not turn CC into a free action, Divine challenge already IS one. So, yes, a Fighter|Paladin can double punish an enemy for misbehaving. Take Champion of Order and you can triple punish a marked foe.

 

[Nullzone]

Hmm, seems to make sense by RAW but I'd never allow it RAI. You can only mark as a hybrid Fighter when using a Fighter exploit, so if that's the case then there's no way a Paladin feature should also trigger a Fighter one.

Thanks for clearing it up, in any case.

 

[Nyronus]

Hmm, seems to make sense by RAW but I'd never allow it RAI. You can only mark as a hybrid Fighter when using a Fighter exploit, so if that's the case then there's no way a Paladin feature should also trigger a Fighter one.

Thanks for clearing it up, in any case.

Well... that's rather lame of you to do. Considering the ammount of feats one needs to invested to make this trick worthwhile and considering it can be replicated by taking an already great paragon path, it's hardly broken. There really is no reason to ban it outright. Furthermore, if we take the "Fighters Need to Use Their Class Features For A Mark to Mean Anything" route you kind of nerf a lot of generic marking stuff. The bard at-will that marks enemies for someone else is kind of worthless then, or is atleast totally outclassed by the other power they have which just straight up gives the enemy a -2 to all attacks. Finally, it isn't RAI, its a house rule. RAI means "the intent is obvious, the writing is crappy." That is not the case here. The fact that the fighter can use any mark to trigger his ability is probably a feature not a bug, particularly since they A) Never named his mark and focused his feature around delivering said mark, which they did with all other classes, save the Warden. If only one class operated that way it would make sense to call it a fluke, but a deliberate repitition implied intent. B) published materials allowing him to and other classes to spread generic marks which would be somewhat worthless unless some classes could interact with generic marks.

 

[Nullzone]

I'm not really interested in continuing this, as it is derailing the topic further. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[keterys]

Hybrid fighter / paladins (or fighter / wardens) actually work out surprisingly well, since what the fighter really needs is to land his mark any way he can. Though it's not quite as silly as a hybrid ranger / rogue or similar who has lots of minor actions to trigger both damages.

Or, crazier, a hybrid warlock / executioner who deals curse dice and (executioner assassin) dice with every eldritch strike.

That one's new, though. I still have hopes that WotC will see the light and fix it.