Unbeliever PrC needs help

[kitcik]

First, let me say that this is completely unrelated to Thomas Covenant, and I apologize to any fans who may have thought otherawise from the title.

Second, let me say that I realize that certain of the class ability names are similar to or the same as existing D&D abilities. Please point these out and I will change them over time.

Third, I recognize that this class is "broken" in comparison to other melee classes. My question - is it broken compared to full casters?

Unbeliever PrC

Requirements:
BAB +5
No spellcasting ability (if spellcasting ability is ever gained, lose all Unbeliever class abilities forever)

Class Skills:
Same as fighter plus Spellcraft
Unbelievers cannot have ranks in Use Magic Device or Use Psionic Device

Weapon and Armor proficiency: same as fighter, plus gain proficiency in one exotic weapon of your choice

HD: d12
Skill points: 4 + Int
BAB: full
Saves: Fort good, Will good, Reflex poor
Abilities:
1st I DON'T THINK LIKE A CASTER
2nd SHRUG IT OFF
3rd fighter bonus feat, SPELL IMMUNITY (LESSER)
4th Blindsight 60'
5th IMPROVED SHRUG IT OFF
6th fighter bonus feat, SPELL IMMUNITY (MEDIUM)
7th CUT THE CRAP
8th IRON HEART SURGE (RAI)
9th fighter bonus feat, SPELL IMMUNITY (GREATER)
10th GET OUT OF MY HEAD, DIE CASTER DIE

I DON'T THINK LIKE A CASTER: The Unbeliever cannot be scryed (or be subject to similar effects).

SHRUG IT OFF: When making a saving throw vs. a spell or effect that would be subject to the Evasion ability, the Unbeliever can make a Fortitude saving throw instead of a Reflex saving throw. The Unbeliever takes no damage on a successful save.

SPELL IMMUNITY (LESSER): The Unbeliever is immune to spells, spell-like effects and psionic abiltities of the third level or lower which are targetted at him/her.

IMPROVED SHRUG IT OFF: As SHRUG IT OFF except the Unbeliever only takes 1/2 damage on a failed save.

SPELL IMMUNITY (MEDIUM): As per Lesser, but up to 6th level.

CUT THE CRAP: Once per encounter, as an immediate action, the Unbeliever can automatically dispel a spell, psionic ability or SLA that has an area of effect and a duration of at least one round, where the Unbeliever is within the area of effect.

IRON HEART SURGE (RAI): As per the Iron Heart Maneuver of the same name (as if you had Martial Study of the maneuver), except does not affect AoE spells or stupid things like the sun. Useable as a swift action, does not require movement.

SPELL IMMUNITY (GREATER): As per Lesser, but up to 9th level.

GET OUT OF MY HEAD: The Unbeliever is immune to Charm, Suggesstion, Dominate and similar effects which strip him/her of his/her free will.

DIE CASTER DIE: All of the Unbelievers weapons are treated as having the magebane property and any spells cast within the Unbeliever's line of sight provoke an AoO from him/her, even if he/she has used up their AoO's for the round. The Unbeliever can only take this AoO if they are capable of hitting the caster with a weapon they have in hand.

 

[emoplato]

Well, yes it is broken compared to casters, because you made a class that by all language is immune to any spell or spell-like ability. You also made it so no possible mal-effect could touch this thing other than weapons and immediate supernatural abilities. Look if you want to debate casters versus fighters there is a blog for that.

 

[kitcik]

Well, yes it is broken compared to casters, because you made a class that by all language is immune to any spell or spell-like ability. You also made it so no possible mal-effect could touch this thing other than weapons and immediate supernatural abilities. Look if you want to debate casters versus fighters there is a blog for that.

Thanks for the pointless reply.

Note that if you conclude so easily that "immunity" to spells > spell ability, you obviously haven't thought too hard about it (maybe it is too much for you).

Note that while he is most vulnerable to weapons, et al, that is also the only offense he has.

Personally, I still think the ability to cast 9th level spells (etc.) is more utile than this guy, but this guy might at least have a place at the table.

 

[Thrallherd]

The Spell Immunity ability is WAY overboard. If I were to edit one thing, I would make Spell Immunity into something like Spell Avoidance, where you get a significant bonus on saves against Spells?

 

[emoplato]

Thanks for the pointless reply.

Note that if you conclude so easily that "immunity" to spells > spell ability, you obviously haven't thought too hard about it (maybe it is too much for you).

Note that while he is most vulnerable to weapons, et al, that is also the only offense he has.

Personally, I still think the ability to cast 9th level spells (etc.) is more utile than this guy, but this guy might at least have a place at the table.

No, I have thought about and the fact is most spell-like abilities are based off of spells I will guarantee you any person will argue all day with the DM and most will back him that they will be immune because most spell-like abilities are based off of spells. Whether it is successful is irrelevant because no one would end up having any fun. Actually he isn't that vulnerable he could easily net a feat and ability chain since oh yes it doesn't have feat or skill requirements. This guy could easily take a Tome of Battle base class and go to town. You obviously get some special pleasure about being the person who always has to shout first. Like I said go to the other blog and actually give constructive options or points. No one is going to listen to you in this one given what you put down.

 

[kitcik]

No, I have thought about and the fact is most spell-like abilities are based off of spells I will guarantee you any person will argue all day with the DM and most will back him that they will be immune because most spell-like abilities are based off of spells. Whether it is successful is irrelevant because no one would end up having any fun.

WHAT?

I didn't say anything about SLA's.

I said:

Do you really think immunity to spells is better than the ability to cast spells?

This is the basic point being raised here. It is only tangentially related to the other post. It is a reasonable question and one that you rudely refuse to answer. YOU ARE THE ONE NOT GIVING A CONSTRUCTIVE RESPONSE. Get out of my thread and stop being a jackwagon.

Actually he isn't that vulnerable he could easily net a feat and ability chain since oh yes it doesn't have feat or skill requirements. This guy could easily take a Tome of Battle base class and go to town.

Interesting. Do you really think this guy can "go to town" more than a 15th level druid?

You obviously get some special pleasure about being the person who always has to shout first. Like I said go to the other blog and actually give constructive options or points. No one is going to listen to you in this one given what you put down.

Had a bad day at kindergarten today?

 

[xigbar]

Had a bad day at kindergarten today?

Et Tu?

Anyway, this class is, in my opinion, better than a caster. You've effectively made someone who can not be beaten in combat without some sort of special means. I might collapse Spell Immunity to something more reasonable, such as 1st<Third<5th level spells. It's not only mechanically more reasonable, but it's realistic. Really. You stand there with a Meteor Swarm hailing down on you, and deny it's existence.

 

[Visigani]

Actually... better than spell immunity... why not "Aura of Disbelief" that acts as an antimagic/dispelling with s a sort of "mordenkainen's disjunction" gaze effect with concentration as caster level for any necessary caster level checks, etc etc.

For example... you attempt to transmute rock to lava... I see it for what it is, some paltry BS "illusion", which is what all magic is. Your spell isn't simply countered it's willed away and the rock instantly cools and so forth.

You summon a demon and it approaches me and winks out of existence.

Your fancy flesh golem, despite the instant magic that animated it turns into so gloppy clumps of goo at my stare.


I believe this would be reasonably balanced. That's not sarcasm. Not even "witty non sarcasm". I really do believe, in the current scheme of things, this would be reasonably balanced.

 

[kitcik]

Actually... better than spell immunity... why not "Aura of Disbelief" that acts as an antimagic/dispelling with s a sort of "mordenkainen's disjunction" gaze effect with concentration as caster level for any necessary caster level checks, etc etc.

For example... you attempt to transmute rock to lava... I see it for what it is, some paltry BS "illusion", which is what all magic is. Your spell isn't simply countered it's willed away and the rock instantly cools and so forth.

You summon a demon and it approaches me and winks out of existence.

Your fancy flesh golem, despite the instant magic that animated it turns into so gloppy clumps of goo at my stare.


I believe this would be reasonably balanced. That's not sarcasm. Not even "witty non sarcasm". I really do believe, in the current scheme of things, this would be reasonably balanced.

You're trying to be sarcastic, but the funny thing is THAT IS WHAT CASTERS CAN DO. So, you've only supported my point, thanks.

 

[kitcik]

Et Tu?

Anyway, this class is, in my opinion, better than a caster. You've effectively made someone who can not be beaten in combat without some sort of special means. I might collapse Spell Immunity to something more reasonable, such as 1st<Third<5th level spells. It's not only mechanically more reasonable, but it's realistic. Really. You stand there with a Meteor Swarm hailing down on you, and deny it's existence.

Well, at least a constructive response.

Is it really better than a caster, though? Say your party is comprised of this character, a rogue, a barbarian, a wizard and a cleric. You face off against a rogue, a barbarian, a wizard, a cleric and a druid. Everyone is 15th level.

The difference is we have one guy that has to get taken out by the barbarian, or the rogue, or the cleric with Divine Might, or the druid in wildhsaped form (all bolstered by wizard buffs) vs. they have an extra caster with a full complement of spells up to 7th level and wildshape ability. In other words, they can leave me for last, while we have to deal with the druid immediately. Seems like the guys with the druid would have a big advantage despite the Unbeliever's spell immunity.

I am not yet dead certain that the caster is significantly better, but I am leaning in that direction.

You say "cannot be beaten in combat except by special means" but a 15th level warblade would likely beat this guy in combat. As would a self-buffing cleric or druid. Furthermore, those other classes provide a variety of utility while this class does not, it just defends itself from magic. [Also, keep in mind you are not immune to non-targetted spells.]

Or, if you disagree with that, I'd be curious why?