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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 9505521" data-attributes="member: 6932123">Mostly agree. I do think the crafting rules are fairly generous, but only once you get past the barrier of the skills (and to a certain extent, time) needed. And that skills barrier is definitely troublesome.I put together a party of characters to play around with how the new system worked. I'm running them through a campaign I've played before, just to see how things compare.One thing I wanted to try was the crafting. What I encountered:CharactersRogue (human): Had to pick up the Skilled origin feat in order to get Arcana and a couple crafting tools. I was only really OK with this because the rogue was human, and thus got a second origin feat. I could have also gotten Arcana from the free human skill, but that by itself wouldn't have been enough for the tool proficiencies. Though Arcana (free) + Crafter origin feat would probably have been better, but would have sacrificed one more normal skill proficiency.Barbarian (aasimar): Didn't get Skilled, so had no way to get either Arcana or any useful crafting tools. So the barbarian doesn't get to craft anything.Monk (dragonborn): The designated crafter, taking the free tool proficiency from the class, plus the Artisan background for the Crafter origin feat, ending up with 5 crafting tool proficiencies. I think I got Arcana by customizing the Artisan background a bit, so that's slightly non-standard. Normally Arcana would not have been available, and this would have been a complete non-starter.Sorcerer (tiefling): Got Arcana as a normal skill pick, but had no tool proficiencies. Ended up fudging the background to grab Tinker's Tools because I was already getting frustrated with the limitations.Druid (elf): Got Arcana as a normal skill pick, even though I normally would not have taken that. Got Calligrapher's Tools from the background, and Herbalism Kit from the class itself. Mostly used to craft healing potions.BackgroundsOn the default backgrounds, other than Artisan, the only crafting tools that are available are Calligrapher's Tools and Herbalism Kit, for scrolls and potions, respectively. No other background provides a tool proficiency for crafting weapons/armor/magic items/etc, aside from Carpenter's Tools which can make a club, greatclub, or quarterstaff (and Carpenter's Tools aren't listed as a viable tool for crafting magic items).Essentially, if you don't get the Artisan background with its Crafter origin feat (or get the feat via being human), you aren't intended to be crafting anything other than consumables (scrolls or potions).CraftingFor actual crafting, you quickly hit limitations on what you can make. For all the wrangling I did, only one character can make weapons and armor, and no character can make enspelled items. The monk can craft the weapons and armor, but can't prepare spells, and if you can't prepare the spell, you can't craft an enspelled item. The casters can prepare spells, but are not as easily set up as crafters, at least as non-human races.And of course, coöperating in order to reduce crafting time is difficult, since multiple characters have to choose the same skills in order to do so. I happen to have two characters with Tinker's Tools, so can make Wondrous Items in half the time, but anything else will require the full crafting time, and that starts running into downtime issues.If the game is not designed for downtime, you're not going to be crafting much regardless. An occasional week or two of downtime for a bit of crafting is not too hard to work in, but the DM definitely has to be on the same page. It's very easy for purchased adventures to have no real downtime assumed at all, because they're designed with the purpose of keeping the players in an ongoing adventure.Having multiple characters with the same crafting tool proficiencies requires cooperation in the original character creation, and a deliberate sacrificing of versatility, simply for the sake of making crafting viable with more limited downtime.Training Tool ProficienciesXanathar's provides a means of training tool proficiencies, and I'm working on that for the characters that don't get crafting options, but it's definitely slow going. A character needs 10 weeks of downtime (-1 week per +1 Int mod, which isn't a thing for most non-wizard characters), and that's going to be a long time.  For the game I'm running through, even with extra downtime added in, they'll likely be in the level 8 to 10 range before they get their first crafting tool proficiencies.Now, that's honestly not horrible compared to the non-existent crafting we had before, but it's definitely frustrating for characters to be left out of the system entirely for so long. Plus, if you get a Bastion, there are several facilities that can just automatically craft common and uncommon magic items starting at level 9. Since you have 4 special facilities at level 9, being able to craft your own custom items definitely feels like it has a lot more limited value by that point. And you need months' worth of downtime to make anything above uncommon rarity.Homebrew ChangesChanges that I would consider (and I haven't tested, so caveat emptor) would be:1) Be able to assist in crafting if you have some tool proficiency that's at least somewhat similar to the main crafter's.  The main purpose would be to allow almost anyone to at least participate in attempts to craft, rather than be left out because they didn't specifically build for such a purpose.<table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Main craft</th><th>Assist crafts</th></tr><tr><td>Alchemist's Supplies</td><td>Alchemist's Supplies, Herbalism Kit, Cook's Utensils</td></tr><tr><td>Calligrapher's Supplies</td><td>Calligrapher's Supplies, Painter's Supplies</td></tr><tr><td>Herbalism Kit</td><td>Herbalism Kit, Alchemist's Supplies, Cook's Utensils</td></tr><tr><td>Jeweler's Tools</td><td>Jeweler's Tools, Tinker's Tools, Glassblower's Tools</td></tr><tr><td>Leatherworker's Tools</td><td>Leatherworker's Tools, Weaver's Tools, Cobbler's Tools</td></tr><tr><td>Smith's Tools</td><td>Smith's Tools, Mason's Tools, Woodcarver's Tools, Carpenter's Tools</td></tr><tr><td>Tinker's Tools</td><td>Tinker's Tools, Jeweler's Tools, Glassblower's Tools</td></tr><tr><td>Weaver's Tools</td><td>Leatherworker's Tools, Weaver's Tools, Cobbler's Tools, Calligrapher's Supplies</td></tr><tr><td>Woodcarver's Tools</td><td>Woodcarver's Tools, Carpenter's Tools, Smith's Tools, Mason's Tools</td></tr></table>2) Rather than only Arcana, allow any of Arcana, Religion, or Nature to be a prerequisite for crafting magic items. They'd represent an understanding of Arcane, Divine, or Primal magics. That would mean any class would be able to choose such a skill if they desired.3) Allow a reduction in the crafting time by 10% per +1 Int mod for the main crafter. I'd probably only consider this one in games where I knew that the amount of downtime would be low. If there's a lot of downtime, it's not really necessary. Still, it would be a nice side benefit for an otherwise mostly unused stat.</blockquote>

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