Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

D&D 5E (2024) Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

I am not going to count the number of blades of grass or leaves on a tree I need to defile for a fireball. The knowledge that it happens is sufficient, mechanics make this tedious


I agree insofar as it should not be a subclass ;)

More modern take could just be sonething like defiling 5' per spell level. Plant monsters take xyz damage/exhaustion levels. Living creatures get a small debuff (-1 or 2 to hit next attacker save until start of their turn.

Preservers dont get killed or gain inspiration instead.

Defiling should almost be NPCs only or treated like the dark side in Star Wars. You fall you're character is retired. Do it enough you get killed or removed from the game. Consequences.
 

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The thing is, we need to have a mechanical and mathematical understanding of "living grass" if you're going to convert that living grass into some mechanical advantage for your character, be it extra spell slots of enhancement to your abilities, whatever. It should logically follow that a single blade of grass and a multi-ton oak would give you different amounts of power if defiled, but as of now there is no way for the logic of the game to differentiate between the two.

You can say "when I cast spells the plants around me die", but that's a ribbon and there's nothing stopping you from saying that right now with any spellcasting class, we don't need a whole defiling subclass for a cosmetic change.

I'm saying a ribbon effect is fine. We don't need a whole defiling subclass.

The ribbon is meaningful, because it produces an effect in the narrative that other characters can react to, which produces the effect of making defiling something that only the powerful or the secretive can get away with. "I could cast Charm Person to get through this guard, but because this is Dark Sun, I'm going to want to make sure there's no witnesses..." is a very good thing to encourage a spellcaster to consider.

The points don't matter. What matters more is what happens in the fiction.

What I'm trying to express here is that RAW, right now, there is no way to quantify the "easy" or "hard" decision; we would have to introduce a new system of logic to the game in order to have players be able to make those choices.

If we want players to have to choose between "flargunnow" and "sloobydoop", we must first define flargunnow and sloobydoop, and in so doing, we will have created a dichotomous system of flargunnowness and sloobydoopitude. Likewise, we must first define "living plant" and "dead plant" (or "preserved" and "defiled") in D&D, and once we create those definitions, the system will be assembled from what we define that they are, and are not.

What's wrong with the definition of something like...

If you are not a Druid or Cleric, whenever you cast a spell, you defile in an area 5 feet around you per level of the spell. Defiling has no mechanical effect: it doesn't cause damage or any conditions. It creates a noticeable impact on living things in the area, causing small deaths and sudden discomforts. Defiling only affects living things. No effect is produced on objects, and constructs and undead do not experience the effects. Specific effects are determined by the DM based on your specific surroundings at the time of casting the spell, but may include any or all of the following in the area you defile.
  • Tiny life forms such as gnats or ants or nits in the area you defile turn to ash and dust.
  • The soil in the area you defile dries out and crumbles, and is no longer able to support plant life.
  • Larger life forms wither in part, or experience sudden signs of disease or injury. For instance, a human might experience a sudden nosebleed or loss of breath, or a tree's leaves might become spotted.

Defiling is only possible in areas where there are living things around to power the spell, which may not be true in some of the more thoroughly obliterated wastelands on Athas. If you cannot defile, and you have no other way of casting a spell, you cannot cast spells.
 



If there is defiler magic somebody could ask the update of cerulean wizard, the shadow wizard and the Athasian necromancer.

Alot of thst came in later books though. Cerulean Wizards also very timeline dependent and the events of Prism Pentad/Revised set aren't that popular.

Even 4E only advanced the timeline a few weeks or months.
 

"Objects."

The game does not differentiate between grass in the hills and hay in bales; RAW there are no living organisms in 5e rules that aren't also "creatures", "monsters" or "NPCs."

I suppose a small number of fungi like brown mold are considered hazards, traps or magical contagions.
The object is always greener on the other side of the fence.

(I kid I kid...I couldn't resist...no harm no foul?)
 



To bring it back on topic, that's why so many people don't want a new Dark Sun release to deny itself. When continuing an existing IP, no one wants a new entry that feels embarrassed by its own history. A trim here, a tuck there, sure. But it still needs to be an example of why we wanted it to come back and that means celebrating the material. Not bad mouthing what came before. It's a fine line.
This. I feel this is one of the best takes I've seen in this thread so far. It sums up well enough the problem people have with the idea of a Dark Sun book that would be mishandled or possibly excessively sanitized for corporate or otherwise spurious reasons, said in a way that's possibly better than how the people with those fears express those feelings.

I think another element that exacerbate this issue is the fact that Dark Sun always tried to stand out and be different from the rest of the settings. It developed a unique identity as the setting that wanted to turn the cliché fantasy tropes on their heads, and while even I think that's probably a little exaggerated and it's more like it just gave an edgier turn to some races, the fact that its major inspirations seem to be the Barsoom cycle, the grittier takes no sword and sorcery and possibly Mad Max but fantasy-fied, definitely makes Dark Sun stand out as very different from your "typical" D&D high fantasy, kitchen sink setting.
Starting to alter anything that's strongly characteristic of the setting is likely to be immediately felt as a move toward homogenizing it and sanitizing it, which the fans of the setting reasonably despise.

It doesn't help that, to this day, all the supposed controversies just feel very fake and forced.
On slavery, it's interesting that the discussion seems to be just between people who think WotC will get rid of it even though it's foundational for the setting in order to sanitize it, and people who think it won't be removed because WotC is fine with slavery in other settings. Neither side thinks that the concept is inherently a problem, while the hypothetical third side that's actively demanding for all references to slavery to be dropped from fiction due to their offensiveness are nowhere to be seen.
It's not just forum discussions either, because this got discussed by major youtubers, and you could scour hundreds of comments, and the people who want slavery gone just don't show up. I remember that some years ago Paizo had some issue because someone wrote a letter to them complaining about slavery being so frequent in their settings and they decided to quit mentioning it, but that's about it. I honestly think that the discussion is based entirely on a nothingburger that only very few strongly opinionated people have, or used to have, because every niche opinion has at least a small group of fans, but barely anyone at all really thinks that there's an inherent problem with portraying societies where slavery is systemic and endemic.

The cannibal halflings (who technically aren't even cannibals) are a reach, and the controversy there relies on taking the most uncharitable interpretations for them by associating them with unrelated racial stereotypes from a century ago. The controversy on the Muls relies on deliberately misunderstanding what's being told in Dark Sun, because the fact that their name resembles "mules", as in sterile half-breeds, is well fitting with their nature as a slave race that was artificially created by the Sorcerer-Kings in order to have physically strong slaves for labour and warfare through eugenics, and that's a bad thing because the Sorcerer-Kings are evil, tyrannical, genociding bastards so awful that the Muls aren't even on the top 10 of worst things they've done. Evil is depicted as evil, and Dark Sun being a mature (with a strong edgy streak) setting is not dancing around the stuff. The point of Muls is how this people, born from the violence of their creators, react and reinvent themselves in a hostile world, preferably by rebelling and killing their oppressors. I also recall some people arguing that nomadic Elves could be interpreted as Roma, which... Really doesn't make sense to me? Not all nomads are Roma, and historically settled societies always distrusted nomadic people in general because of how poorly controllable and unpredictable they were, getting a reputation as barbarians, raiders and people outside of "civilization". This has nothing to do with the Roma in particular, it's just nomadism in general when it clashes and lives next to settled peoples.

Some people argue that some taming of the setting is necessary because of the current demographic that plays D&D, which is something I also doubt. D&D is mainstream nowadays, and mainstream audiences aren't overly sensitive or consider strong themes to be distateful, quite the opposite. Warhammer wouldn't be at the top of its popularity right now if that were the case, nor many videogames.
The concern to me seems to have to do less with the reality of the mainstream audiences' tastes (who I think are actually quite apathetic, usually unaware that there are even strong arguments in the hardcore fanbase, and just buy whatever has enough brand recognition for them), and more a fictional idea born out of some shareholder's meeting where they tried to triangulate what would sell the most among the largest audience imaginable, usually resulting in something completing alienated from reality.

Anyhow, here's hoping that the (apparently) coming Dark Sun book is of decent quality. In any case, I already figured out that, if the upcoming book ends up being really bad, it ultimately won't matter since the main resources for the setting will remain the 2E material, it's not like the 5E book can scrap those out of existence with a really lame take on the setting. If the new book is decent then all the better, even if it doesn't match the originals it will still be an entry point for new fans who will get exploring the old stuff. And if it's really, really good, not that I expect it, I guess I'll be pleasantly surprised.
 

Dark Sun is a perfect opportunity to show an official setting that is both reduced is scope and that emphasizes on some existing aspects of the game, as opposed to the « if it exists in D&D, it exists in this world too » approach of the last decade.

I’m good with refluffing if they lean heavily on the new fluff in question. I’m curious how this will turn out (keeping in mind that this all speculation still)
 

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