D&D 5E (2024) Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

[Ruin Explorer]

The cannibal tribes in Dark Sun were based on racist depictions of real life human beings.

Were they?

I'm not saying they weren't, but what's the position here, that they were explicitly and/or obviously based on say, multi-level racist depictions of, for example, Pygmy ethnic groups in Africa (surprisingly Pygmy is still the correct overarching term)? That's a case where local non-Pygmy African ethnic groups (who were often in conflict with the Pygmies) lied racist-ly to the Western colonizers that the Pygmies were cannibals (and also assigned various bad behaviours to them), and the colonizers gleefully and with their own layer of racism, spread that already-racist lie around the world. But is there some specific reason to believe that the halfling cannibals were based on that?

But if the suggestion is merely that if a group is both non-agrarian and cannibal (as some groups indisputably have been, in many different ways), and that that's inherently "racist" (against whom?) to portray in D&D, that would seem like a perhaps untenable position, because historically countless groups have met those criteria (of many ethnicities including "white" ones). Especially if the only connection to Pygmy tribes is "well halflings are short too innit", that might seem to some to be, I dunno, a stretch. Presumably not that though?

AD&D (and to some extent 3E and later) never ceases to amaze me with bizarre racist tropes, so I wouldn't be shocked if they're full-on based on some portrayal of some ethnic group and I just wasn't aware of it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

What does "equal opportunity slavery" mean?

Presumably he's referring to the fact that, for most of history, slavery hasn't been seen as an inherent ethnic trait, but rather something that could, theoretically, happen to anyone, with the ethnicity-justified chattel slavery of the USA, Caribbean and part of Latin America being an aberration rather than typical.

However, Dark Sun has not been consistent on this point, kind of wanting to have its cake and eat it, with Muls basically being seen as inherently, ethnically slaves in a lot of portrayals, but also this idea that anyone could become a slave.

Personally I think it'd be better to lean on brutal systems of oppression generally rather than slavery specifically, if updating Dark Sun, especially as some people really fetishize slavery (in various ways).

 

[Umbran]

And even the "racist stereotypes" are only an issue...

Mod note:
I would recommend you review the site's inclusivity policy before speaking on the subject of racism again on these boards. Being dismissive of people's opinions in a block like that is not generally going to fly well here.

 

[Necropolitan]

But if the suggestion is merely that if a group is both non-agrarian and cannibal (as some groups indisputably have been, in many different ways), and that that's inherently "racist" (against whom?) to portray in D&D, that would seem like a perhaps untenable position

When their appearance is directly drawn from those racist depictions, they're led by "Witch Doctors," and they've got every other signifier of that racist depiction then the answer's yes it is in fact racist.

And the problem is it's presented as a universal cultural trait. Every single person who looks like this can be assumed to be a "savage" (the word the book uses) cannibal except for a single tribe of 'civilized' ones and lone ones in other areas:

 

[Phantom_Miria]

Mod note:
I would recommend you review the site's inclusivity policy before speaking on the subject of racism again on these boards. Being dismissive of people's opinions in a block like that is not generally going to fly well here.

I probably did come off as dismissive there, so I hope I can explain myself more clearly here.
I've read the rules, I'm not here to rant about "agendas" and "ideology" here because that stuff's dumb, but I think that if I believe that there are criticism of the setting that are inaccurate, then I can discuss respectfully about it, without calling anyone names or being called names. That too is in the name of letting more people and more ideas being allowed to express themselves in the space.
If I were too hasty in the way I worded that, I apologize.

Or alternatively the "racist stereotypes" are not an issue for some people are utterly determined to ignore racism where there's actually a serious problem, so you might as well skip that part since you can't help people to see serious social problems if they are bound and determined to be ignorant.

This for instance I think is uncharitable.

I don't think it's fair that I'm indirectly accused of being a racist because I don't believe that the content inside the original Dark Sun publications contain anything that I could reasonably describe as "serious social problems". Quite the opposite, Dark Sun reads like a rather progressive piece with a love for edgy stuff too. The themes of racial strife are in the context of evil tyrants engaging in genocide, that the setting portrays as an extremely evil act that literally brought the world almost to dying outright, the slavery is depicted as massive social ill, the Muls are another depiction of the evil of the Sorcerer-Kings and how they created a whole race through eugenics just to get better slaves, and this obviously portrayed as more of them being evil and the Muls as characters who have a chance to redeem themselves from the condition forced on them by breaking free, and the cannibal halflings are not in reference to any real world culture and are just how some tribal groups have adapted to survive in an extremely harsh environment by eating everything who's not other halflings. The Thri-Kreen do the same stuff, they just look like bugs instead of small dudes, so I guess it feels more acceptable, but they too eat intelligent people.

I don't see "serious social issues" being promoted here, rather addressed, and I feel that the setting gets frequently misread on purpose in order to treat the stuff it treats as a topic like it's endorsing it.

The cannibal tribes in Dark Sun were based on racist depictions of real life human beings.

I don't think they really are though.
They're halflings, who eat any living thing that's not their own because it's a harsh world outside. As far as I recall, they don't even eat each others, which means they aren't even really technically cannibals, we call them that because they still eat intelligent people of other races, but I guess that from their point of view outsiders are just a different kind of animal. I never heard anything that directly tried to connect them with any real world culture. "Pygmies" get referenced, but I don't think there's literally any similarity outside of the fact that both are considered short, which seems a really weak connection to me.
I mean, look at Warhammer's Pygmies (who are legit 100% based on racial caricatures, and you can tell immediately), and then look at Dark Sun's halflings, who just happen to have a generic tribal look (like a lot of other people), they're short (because they're just halflings) and they eat anything they can (which is also not something unique to them, and it's just part of Dark Sun's extreme emphasis on fighting for survival and pushing people to the extreme).

The mere idea of people-eating folks or creatures isn't racist. Otherwise most of the monster manual would be racist, which is a stupid thing to think. Or the Thri-Kreen as a I said above.

Also, it's just culture. There have been human cultures who have practiced various forms of cannibalism, usually always heavily ritualized and based on their understanding of religion and spirituality, and that didn't make them monsters or anything. It's just one among thousands of independently arising traits in cultures worldwide just like human sacrifice, slavery, and lots of other unpleasant stuff. By the way, when I'm writing this I'm thinking of Brazilian Tupi people, who historically practiced ritual cannibalism in a rather strict, ceremonial way, and these practices were usually misunderstood and exaggerated by the colonizers who just saw them as eating other people. Some cultures in Papua New Guinea also come to mind, and neither them or the Tupi seem to be referenced by Dark Sun in any direct or indirect way. Halflings in Dark Sun are just short tribal people who are really isolationist and eat anything they can, reasonably so given the conditions of the planet.
I don't think that whole aspects of our real human cultures should become untouchable subjects just because they can be interpreted in bad ways, it's unreasonable.

This is before you even get to all the connotations behind the Muls.

But what connotations are there with the Muls outside of the fact that the Sorcerer-Kings are evil bastards?
They are a slave race made by very evil people in a very evil way, and Muls in the settings are thus either enslaved and forced into a life of hardship or escape to find a new, proper way to figure out themselves away from their cruel masters.

 

[briggart]

When their appearance is directly drawn from those racist depictions, they're led by "Witch Doctors," and they've got every other signifier of that racist depiction then the answer's yes it is in fact racist.

And the problem is it's presented as a universal cultural trait. Every single person who looks like this can be assumed to be a "savage" (the word the book uses) cannibal except for a single tribe of 'civilized' ones and lone ones in other areas:

View attachment 428218View attachment 428219View attachment 428220View attachment 428215

It's not a "single tribe", it's a different culture, in a different geographical area. The impression I got from Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs (but it's been a long time since I read it) is that the Rhul-Thaun are the main halfling culture, probably encompassing a larger number of individuals than the Crescent Forest tribes. Their main settlement had population rivaling that of cities like Tyr and Gulg.

The Crescent Forest tribes probably feel like the default depiction since they were introduced in the original boxed set, were depicted in the novels, and are more likely to be encountered in the Tablelands.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

I believe certain potentially controversial details won't be retconned but simply omitted or hinted at. For example, instead of saying they are cannibals, it will be said that "they are willing to hunt and devour anything that moves".

Other idea is a neighbouring wildspace discovered, settled and conquered by a rogue faction of githyankis who allied with infernal dragons. Then these (infernal) dragon overlords are the true rulers like the sorcerer-kings of the region of Tyr.

 

[GungHo]

But what connotations are there with the Muls outside of the fact that the Sorcerer-Kings are evil bastards?
They are a slave race made by very evil people in a very evil way, and Muls in the settings are thus either enslaved and forced into a life of hardship or escape to find a new, proper way to figure out themselves away from their cruel masters.

They're a mixed race people called mules. Them being bred for hybrid vigor for increased work productivity and entertainment while not allowed to breed of their own volition is a further degradation.

 

[mamba]

They're a mixed race people called mules. Them being bred for hybrid vigor for increased work productivity and entertainment while not allowed to breed of their own volition is a further degradation.

I thought they are sterile, so them breeding of their own volition is impossible. Are you talking about the parents here?

 

[Phantom_Miria]

They're a mixed race people called mules. Them being bred for hybrid vigor for increased work productivity and entertainment while not allowed to breed of their own volition is a further degradation.

Yeah, and I think the original material was pretty open about the whole deal being a violence that the Sorcerer-Kings did to them, by creating them through force-breeding humans and dwarves. Muls, with the framing the setting has, pretty much make for the ideal hero character who starts a slave revolt.

Rikus, the guy from the Prism Penthad book, is a Mul and the guy who ends up killing both Kalak, the Sorcerer-King of Tyr, and Borys, the Dragon.

I think it was in Fourth Edition that they even added the whole deal about the pronunciation of Mul, and how you can pronounce differently more like "mule", which is guaranteed to piss off Muls because it's meant to reinforce their origin as slave people, and more like mulzhennedar, which is how the Muls prefer to be called, which I thought was a pretty cool new addition to the setting.