Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

D&D 5E (2024) Unconfirmed Dark Sun World Book

My issue would be that any system of mix and match is going to create better choices than others, and much like how multiclassing allows players to chimera powerful options, I wouldn't want everyone to be a hybrid species because it's better/more flexible than regular species (and everyone starts running Dragonborn/gnomes because they get the best resistances, for example).
Well… if you were the DM of a game with such multi-ethnic character creation rules, and you thought it was too powerful, or cheesy, or whatever reason for disliking it, there would be a pretty easy solution…

Just say that in your campaign world, the tyrannical forces that lead each nations are all deeply distrustful of mixed species individuals, and that in this world’s culture, mating with other species is up there in the list of unforgiveable sins, along with incest, etc.

And therefore, while the rules would technically allow these "forbidden love offsprings", they are in fact exceedingly rare, and bereft with negative social consequences for those who have such mixed ancestries.

In effect, you just need to DM a game of RAW 5e 2024 and you have what I just described 😅🤣🥲
 

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Throwing a hot take out there… I find that eliminating the half-races / half-breeds / half-species / whatever you want to call it, from 5e 2024 is pretty racist…

As if people with mixed ancestry didn’t exist.

I have mixed ancestry IRL and I am proud of it.

I think the difference is all of your ancestors are human. In my mind there is a fundamental difference between ethnic groups and species groups.

IMO our IRL experiences are similar to a D&D character having a mix of Drow and High Elf ancestors, or having a human mother who is a native of Chult and a human father from Shou Long. It is not really similar to someone having Elf and Human ancestors IMO.
 

I think the difference is all of your ancestors are human. In my mind there is a fundamental difference between ethnic groups and species groups.

IMO our IRL experiences are similar to a D&D character having a mix of Drow and High Elf ancestors, or having a human mother who is a native of Chult and a human father from Shou Long. It is not really similar to someone having Elf and Human ancestors IMO.
For sure. But that is kind of a by-product of there being no other intelligent humanoids on this Earth (and as far as I know we can’t mate with octopi).

Although even that is controversial, since there appears to be evidence that homo sapiens interbred with neanderthals. We then killed them all (maybe because the holiday parties were too awkward or something?) so we can’t really know how they would feel about it if they were still here 🤷‍♂️
 

What about the elflings?

Athas is in a different material plane, this was plane. This should mean the "common" languange of the region of Tyr isn't the same spoken in the rest of D&D multiverse.

If the sorcerer-kings wanted to produce more mulzen slaves.. they could build special magic chambers where mothers could survive the birth thanks healing magic.

Or maybe the sterility was intentional to avoid they could be "produced" by rivals or decreasing supply to increase price. But then sooner or later the mulzen discovered the trick and they could unlock the "curse" allowing to breed with some little "extra help" like some magic ritual.

My opinion is WotC is going to update the crunch without many details about the lore. Maybe there will be not monster stats for the sorcerer-kings. WotC doesn't want to sell sourcebooks about certain settings but generic, and using the subfranchises for other type of products.

I have got an idea for a possible spin-off or sequel:

It is the end of the Athaspace but some Athasians can enjoy the opportunity to escape, among other reasons elemental powers don't want to lose "loyal" worshippers. The Athasian sun not only is sentient but also a divine power. The survivors travel to a a near wildspace. This was the original home of the Athasian halflings.

The good new is this "new" Athas has recovered enoughly to allow the repopulation and the rebuilt of the Athasian civilitation. The bad new is there are also "settlers" from other wildspaces. In some places the coexistence is possible but not easy.
 

I probably did come off as dismissive there, so I hope I can explain myself more clearly here.
I've read the rules, I'm not here to rant about "agendas" and "ideology" here because that stuff's dumb, but I think that if I believe that there are criticism of the setting that are inaccurate, then I can discuss respectfully about it, without calling anyone names or being called names. That too is in the name of letting more people and more ideas being allowed to express themselves in the space.
If I were too hasty in the way I worded that, I apologize.


This for instance I think is uncharitable.

I don't think it's fair that I'm indirectly accused of being a racist because I don't believe that the content inside the original Dark Sun publications contain anything that I could reasonably describe as "serious social problems". Quite the opposite, Dark Sun reads like a rather progressive piece with a love for edgy stuff too. The themes of racial strife are in the context of evil tyrants engaging in genocide, that the setting portrays as an extremely evil act that literally brought the world almost to dying outright, the slavery is depicted as massive social ill, the Muls are another depiction of the evil of the Sorcerer-Kings and how they created a whole race through eugenics just to get better slaves, and this obviously portrayed as more of them being evil and the Muls as characters who have a chance to redeem themselves from the condition forced on them by breaking free, and the cannibal halflings are not in reference to any real world culture and are just how some tribal groups have adapted to survive in an extremely harsh environment by eating everything who's not other halflings. The Thri-Kreen do the same stuff, they just look like bugs instead of small dudes, so I guess it feels more acceptable, but they too eat intelligent people.

I don't see "serious social issues" being promoted here, rather addressed, and I feel that the setting gets frequently misread on purpose in order to treat the stuff it treats as a topic like it's endorsing it.


I don't think they really are though.
They're halflings, who eat any living thing that's not their own because it's a harsh world outside. As far as I recall, they don't even eat each others, which means they aren't even really technically cannibals, we call them that because they still eat intelligent people of other races, but I guess that from their point of view outsiders are just a different kind of animal. I never heard anything that directly tried to connect them with any real world culture. "Pygmies" get referenced, but I don't think there's literally any similarity outside of the fact that both are considered short, which seems a really weak connection to me.
I mean, look at Warhammer's Pygmies (who are legit 100% based on racial caricatures, and you can tell immediately), and then look at Dark Sun's halflings, who just happen to have a generic tribal look (like a lot of other people), they're short (because they're just halflings) and they eat anything they can (which is also not something unique to them, and it's just part of Dark Sun's extreme emphasis on fighting for survival and pushing people to the extreme).

The mere idea of people-eating folks or creatures isn't racist. Otherwise most of the monster manual would be racist, which is a stupid thing to think. Or the Thri-Kreen as a I said above.

Also, it's just culture. There have been human cultures who have practiced various forms of cannibalism, usually always heavily ritualized and based on their understanding of religion and spirituality, and that didn't make them monsters or anything. It's just one among thousands of independently arising traits in cultures worldwide just like human sacrifice, slavery, and lots of other unpleasant stuff. By the way, when I'm writing this I'm thinking of Brazilian Tupi people, who historically practiced ritual cannibalism in a rather strict, ceremonial way, and these practices were usually misunderstood and exaggerated by the colonizers who just saw them as eating other people. Some cultures in Papua New Guinea also come to mind, and neither them or the Tupi seem to be referenced by Dark Sun in any direct or indirect way. Halflings in Dark Sun are just short tribal people who are really isolationist and eat anything they can, reasonably so given the conditions of the planet.
I don't think that whole aspects of our real human cultures should become untouchable subjects just because they can be interpreted in bad ways, it's unreasonable.


But what connotations are there with the Muls outside of the fact that the Sorcerer-Kings are evil bastards?
They are a slave race made by very evil people in a very evil way, and Muls in the settings are thus either enslaved and forced into a life of hardship or escape to find a new, proper way to figure out themselves away from their cruel masters.
Mod Note:

1) You’re new here, so you might want to take a closer reading of the rules. Responding to moderation text in thread is against them; but you’re getting a pass this time.

2) FWIW, ENWorld has had LOTS of discussions about racism & bigotry in RPGs in general, in D&D in particular, and the hobby overall. Receipts were provided. Many, detailed receipts. You might want to take that into consideration before participating in similar discussions in the future.
 

I disagree, in that the term's "correctness" isn't objective if the people it's being used to describe wholesale reject it. In a discussion regarding racist portrayals and terms, I believe that it's important to highlight the viewpoints of those who will be most affected. In this case, the use of "pygmy" to describe fantasy races.
Sure, I agree, but if that's the standard (and it probably should be) I don't think Central African Forager is going to fare much better. If you're talking about the real ethnic groups only their own terms are likely to be acceptable to them (and rightly so).

Whereas when talking about the racialized trope I suspect Pygmy is probably still the best term (unfortunately), because that's such a multi-layered pile of racism. The sort of racism we're talking about isn't based on the real tribes to a meaningful degree, it's just local racism fed through direct colonial racism, further churned through indirect Western media racism to create a sort of weird composite called "Pygmy".

Looking at these halflings I suspect a modern Athas might want to just swap to the more Giger-esque dinosaur-bone-armour halflings (still having them ride raptors etc.), and swap out "boil you in a pot" cannibalism (ugh) for something that evokes some horror (i.e. makes them seem tough and scary) without being an obvious racist trope, though to be honest given the sheer breadth of Western racism it's hard to immediately think of what that might be!

(Racism, racism never changes - reading Caesar and Tacitus' accounts of the Britons, and Cicero's insane racist rants about the same, you can see a lot of identical tropes being deployed re: the Britons to ones deployed by the distant descendants of those same Britons against various ethnic groups in areas they colonized 1600+ years later!)
 

I mean, look at Warhammer's Pygmies (who are legit 100% based on racial caricatures, and you can tell immediately), and then look at Dark Sun's halflings, who just happen to have a generic tribal look (like a lot of other people), they're short (because they're just halflings) and they eat anything they can (which is also not something unique to them, and it's just part of Dark Sun's extreme emphasis on fighting for survival and pushing people to the extreme).
Warhammer Fantasy notably included some shockingly racist stuff in the 1980s, which was racist even by 1980s British standards, and it's genuinely rather hard to understand what exactly GW thought they were doing there. What's even harder to understand though is when they essentially revisited all this stuff in the mid 1990s with that 5mm fantasy wargame (the name of which escapes me), and then repeated much of the same truly wild racism. Ill-informed or thoughtless or denialist people often like to say "Oh well, like the Empire satirizes the Holy Roman Empire, and Bretonnia satirizes medieval France, so it's fine to do the same to Japan or Arabia", but the key difference is that the Araby and Nippon stuff wasn't based on like, "old stereotypes" about cultures close to Britain, it was based on current ones about cultures far away - for example, Araby was full of terrorists (including suicide bombers), which is a post-1970s bit of Islamophobia, and it really was Islamophobia, because astonishingly, they just straight-up made the inhabitants monotheists worshipping a god called Allah (!!! - this was later retcon'd of course), and Nippon's characters were all named after 1980s and 1990s Japanese brands, and so on. They even tried to bring back "Pygmies" again, albeit this time going for racism against Amazonian ethnic groups instead of Central African ones. Jesus. Luckily those models got cancelled before they got produced (though still appeared in some catalogues iirc).

TSR didn't necessarily do much better though, c.f. The Orcs of Thar and so on.

I guess 1980s and early 1990s media was really wild re: racism/xenophobia/Islamophobia/orientalism etc., because you get movies like Die Hard (1988), which intentionally swerves racist/conventional xenophobic tropes (and even homophobic ones, by 1980s standards, but that's a long discussion), with for example, the brilliant nerdy hacker being a black guy, and the vengeful thugs being very "Aryan"-looking Germans, and the CEO of the Japanese-named company being a Japanese-American who is a fully American-accented unequivocal "good guy" and local rather than a cultural outsider (and a coked-up white American is a pure scumbag), and who actively makes fun of anti-Japanese xenophobia ("Hey, we're flexible. Pearl Harbor didn't work out, so we got you with tape decks." he jokes). It is xenophobic, but to Europe primarily. Contrast this with 1993's Rising Sun, which is wildly xenophobic towards Japan, wildly racist, and presents it's wild take on Japanese culture and corporations as sort of terrifying alien invaders.

EDIT - If you want to hear some good stuff on Die Hard and Rising Sun, the Kill James Bond! episodes on both are hilarious and quite insightful (and also surprisingly not wrong for people mostly not born until after both came out). The Rising Sun one is paywalled but the Die Hard one isn't and is here: KJB Holiday Special: Die Hard | Kill James Bond!
 
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For sure. But that is kind of a by-product of there being no other intelligent humanoids on this Earth (and as far as I know we can’t mate with octopi).

Although even that is controversial, since there appears to be evidence that homo sapiens interbred with neanderthals. We then killed them all (maybe because the holiday parties were too awkward or something?) so we can’t really know how they would feel about it if they were still here 🤷‍♂️
There is no evidence that homo sapiens killed off the neanderthals.
 



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