Undead Alter Self

[Eltern]

Can an undead wizard use Alter Self to turn into an incorporeal form, such as an Allip? Incorporeal is under "special qualities," but is also a "physical quality" of the allip. An allip that isn't incorporeal would be by very nature something really different, don't you think?

I wonder what else an undead mage can have fun Alter Selfing into

 

[Shin Okada]

Hmm. I am not truly sure. The spell seems not have specific restriction about barring incorporeal undead.

But alter Self spell says "Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form." and incorporeality is a part of (incorporeal) subtype. So, maybe that undead caster turns into something looks-like an Allip but not truly incorporeal?

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Sorry, but calling it a physical quality is a bit too much of a stretch for me.

What's more that's way to powerful for a second level spell. Ghost form in Complete Arcane is an 8th level spell.

 

[Eltern]

What's more that's way to powerful for a second level spell. Ghost form in Complete Arcane is an 8th level spell.

So? Why do you think I'm trying to figure this out?

The same thing also works for a Shadow and one or two creatures in Libris Mortis.

I'm thinking this will pretty much be a straight DM decision, based on the hazy wording of the spell. However, I don't think that being incorporeal means you -have- to have an incorporeal subtype. Otherwise, casting the Ghost form spell would give you the incorporeal subtype.

Of course, that's not a very strong argument, either.

 

[Camarath]

One way of looking at it is that Undead (Incorporeal) are Incorporeal because of their Incorporeal subtype which the spell makes clear you do not gain. So since you do not gain the quality that which maded your assumed form Incorporeal there is no reason to think that you would become Incorporeal.

 

[Eltern]

Bump, just to get a few more thoughts on the subject.

I'm having trouble seeing incorporeality as anything other than -THE- physical quality of a Shadow.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'm having trouble seeing incorporeality as anything other than -THE- physical quality of a Shadow.

It's under Special Qualities as "Incorporeal Traits" - as in, the traits of the Incorporeal subtype.

As Camarath says, if you use Alter Self, your subtype doesn't change. So unless you had the incorporeal subtype already, you can't gain it via Alter Self.

Thus, an Allip sorcerer could use Alter Self to turn into an incorporeal Shadow, but a Ghast sorcerer would turn into a corporeal Shadow.

Interestingly, neither of them could use Polymorph to change into a Shadow, since turning into an incorporeal creature is explicitly prohibited by that spell.

Notice that an incorporeal undead creature 'winks out' in an antimagic field. Incorporeality is a magical quality, rather than a physical quality.

-Hyp.