Undead and Fort saves

[Kmart Kommando]

This kind of wording, in our campaigns, has also made undead immune to Acid Orb, even though the fort save is only to avoid the secondary effect and has nothing to do with the initial damage. They need to change it to "immune to anything that effects living creature and has a fort save" or something like that. :\

 

[starwed]

This kind of wording, in our campaigns, has also made undead immune to Acid Orb, even though the fort save is only to avoid the secondary effect and has nothing to do with the initial damage.

A problem with mettle and evasion, as well. The additional effect of Acid Orb over Acid Orb, Lesser is supposed to make it more powerful. In these corner cases, it becomes less powerful... a weird quirk of design.

Where the save is manifestly for a secondary effect tagged onto a primary effect, I'd probably resolve them seperately. But I'd only do this in situations which seemed somehow unfair, as in the case of the Orb spells.

 

[Hypersmurf]

A problem with mettle and evasion, as well. The additional effect of Acid Orb over Acid Orb, Lesser is supposed to make it more powerful. In these corner cases, it becomes less powerful... a weird quirk of design.

I'm not sure I agree. It's a fortitude partial; the effect that the undead are immune to is the nausea, not the orb of acid. The damage effect of the Orb of Acid isn't an effect that requires a Fort save.

While the orb of acid is the Effect of the Orb of Acid spell, the orb of acid has two effects, only one of which requires a Fort save.

Since Undead are immune to more than just spells, the word 'effect' is not referring to the line in the spell stat block, "Effect: one orb of acid", but a more natural sense of the word, meaning "something that happens", essentially.

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I'm not sure I agree. It's a fortitude partial; the effect that the undead are immune to is the nausea, not the orb of acid. The damage effect of the Orb of Acid isn't an effect that requires a Fort save.

While the orb of acid is the Effect of the Orb of Acid spell, the orb of acid has two effects, only one of which requires a Fort save.

Since Undead are immune to more than just spells, the word 'effect' is not referring to the line in the spell stat block, "Effect: one orb of acid", but a more natural sense of the word, meaning "something that happens", essentially.

-Hyp.

My thoughts exactly.
The Orb of Acid is just "here, take some damage.." "oh, and by the way, here's a secondary effect that might happen, fort save plz."

 

[moritheil]

I'm not sure I agree. It's a fortitude partial; the effect that the undead are immune to is the nausea, not the orb of acid. The damage effect of the Orb of Acid isn't an effect that requires a Fort save.

While the orb of acid is the Effect of the Orb of Acid spell, the orb of acid has two effects, only one of which requires a Fort save.

Since Undead are immune to more than just spells, the word 'effect' is not referring to the line in the spell stat block, "Effect: one orb of acid", but a more natural sense of the word, meaning "something that happens", essentially.

-Hyp.

But Mettle specifically states that if someone with mettle successfully saves against fort or will partial or half, they are not affected by the spell at all. It doesn't seem to be the case that someone with Mettle (which starwed referred to) would take any damage from an orb of acid on a successful save. (Whether or not undead immunities work like Mettle is, of course, another matter entirely.)

If a pious templar makes a successful Will or Fortitude saving throw that would normally reduce a spell's effect, she suffers no effect from the spell at all.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But Mettle specifically states that if someone with mettle successfully saves against fort or will partial or half, they are not affected by the spell at all. It doesn't seem to be the case that someone with Mettle (which starwed referred to) would take any damage from an orb of acid on a successful save. (Whether or not undead immunities work like Mettle is, of course, another matter entirely.)

True - Mettle eliminates the entire spell, not merely the effect that requires a Fort save.

-Hyp.