Undead (my players stay out!)

[rvalle]

Does anyone else think it is weird that a (for example) 13th level caster can cast a 1st level Animate Dead and create a 20 HD Zombie (say from an Ettin) but a 6th level Create Undead can only make a 4 HD Ghast (not from an Ettin... but a humanoid)? Am I missing something?


Haste and Zombies. I think, per the rules, that casting Haste on Zombies would give them all the bennies except for the extra attack since they can't do a Full Attack. Right?

Thanks,

rv

 

[lukelightning]

Yeah, it is weird, especially since it is a lot harder to turn the great big zombie than it is to turn a ghast...or wight...or mummy...or morgh...

And yes, the zombie would get all the benefits of haste, but can't get the extra attack because it can't make a full attack.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Animate Dead is 3rd level (4th for wizards), not 1st. And ghasts transmit ghoul fever, which turns its victims into ghouls (or ghasts). Zombies, on the other hand, can't make more zombies.

So it's not quite as weird as it seems; the higher level spell is not that much higher, and the advantage is considerable.

 

[mvincent]

Does anyone else think it is weird that a (for example) 13th level caster can cast a 1st level Animate Dead and create a 20 HD Zombie

As noted, it's actually a 3rd level spell.

However, thanks to the descrate spell, it actually only takes a 5th level caster to create a 20 HD undead (like a balor, pit-fiend or titan skeleton), and it will have extra HP on top of that. That's a whole lot of ouch at a low level, and probably should be nerfed.

 

[Vorput]

And ghouls are a lot smarter than zombies... they can ge be given missions, and if you put cloaks on them, and maybe an illusion spell, people can think them living creatures.

There's just a lot more versatility.

Also, Cheiromancer is right- animate dead=3rd level, not 1st.

 

[Voadam]

Animate Dead is 3rd level (4th for wizards), not 1st. And ghasts transmit ghoul fever, which turns its victims into ghouls (or ghasts). Zombies, on the other hand, can't make more zombies.

So it's not quite as weird as it seems; the higher level spell is not that much higher, and the advantage is considerable.

Animate dead gives you control over your created undead though while create undead does not.

Created undead are not automatically under the control of their animator. If you are capable of commanding undead, you may attempt to command the undead creature as it forms.

 

[rvalle]

Grrr, thats what I get for posting what I think I know instead of checking the spell level!

I'd still take that 20 HD Zombie over a 4 HD Ghast. At least in this situation (straight up fight with a party of 11th level characters).

You can even get more Skellys or Zombies with the Animate spell if you have the bodies around vs just ONE for the Create spell. AND the Create spell has to be on a Huminoid while Animate just has to have a body/skelletion. And since you'll have more 3rd level spells you can cast it more often then the 6th. Very strange.

Thanks,

rv

 

[Tonguez]

Ghouls are intelligent and can take class levels (which is what I'd have them do)
of course the spell doesn't actually help here (ie you can't actually create a Ghast Warlock 10)

But then again the whole set of Undead rules are a bit stoopid what with the same type covering zombies, vampires, Specters and Nightshades....

 

[Wolfwood2]

Animate dead gives you control over your created undead though while create undead does not.

Possibly something that should be house-ruled. After all, when undead create each other using Spawn abilties, the created is usually under the control of the creator. It would give a much-needed boost to Create Undead.

 

[Arkhandus]

Keep in mind the limits of how many hit dice of undead you can control, through Rebuke/Command Undead or Animate Dead. Would you rather have 20 HD worth of Ghasts or a single, lumbering, 20-HD zombie that isn't good for very much? Though Animate Dead has its own separate limit on undead controlled, you'll want better stuff than just zombies for your Rebuke/Command Undead ability as an evil cleric. And evil clerics are the best for amassing undead minions.