Undead (my players stay out!)

[frankthedm]

However, thanks to the descrate spell, it actually only takes a 5th level caster to create a 20 HD undead (like a balor, pit-fiend or titan skeleton), and it will have extra HP on top of that. That's a whole lot of ouch at a low level, and probably should be nerfed.

Still takes a 500gp onyx and a corpse of said critter.

Average onyx is around 50 gp. I'm sure more valuable onyx gems can be had, but obtaining a 500gp onyx should be a bit tough to find.

Also Balors do not leave corpses. They leave craters.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

Still takes a 500gp onyx and a corpse of said critter.

Average onyx is around 50 gp. I'm sure more valuable onyx gems can be had, but obtaining a 500gp onyx should be a bit tough to find.

Also Balors do not leave corpses. They leave craters.

:ditto:

Good luck killing a 20hd anything at level 5.

 

[boolean]

:ditto:

Good luck killing a 20hd anything at level 5.

I could see a 5th level party killing an 18HD T-Rex. It might be a hard fight, depending on situation and tactics, but it's achievable. (Especially if your DM allows Ray of Stupidity as written.)

 

[mvincent]

I could see a 5th level party killing an 18HD T-Rex. It might be a hard fight, depending on situation and tactics, but it's achievable. (Especially if your DM allows Ray of Stupidity as written.)

The T-Rex would be CR 8 (with some extra HP from desecrate), so a 5th level party could do it, but it'd be equivalent to a pretty difficult BBEG battle.

However, the fact that a party could create a T-Rex skeleton for themselves at 5th level can be problem.

 

[Arkhandus]

What? Ray of Exhaustion, or Ray of Enfeeblement? The T-Rex would only fail to resist the former on a natural 1 usually (or natural 2 or 3 if the caster had Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in Necromancy). The T-Rex will easily gobble up the first two people it attacks (and will probably avoid trying to gobble an Enlarged fighter, attacking that after two of the easier morsels are in its gut being digested). And a grappled foe won't put up much fight. 3 PCs can easily be neutralized by the T-Rex, and eventually the beefy Enlarged fighter will be torn to shreds so the last PC will be in dire straits.....

 

[kaomera]

For a straight-up fight Animate Dead is superior. Animate Dead is designed specifically for creating bunches of Mook (or at least mindless and disposable) undead. Create Undead has other uses, and is more of a long-term spell. As has been mentioned the intelligent undead can gain levels, also they can be bargained with. As mentioned a ghast can create more ghouls / ghasts, given access to some prisoners. Get yourself 20+ captured villagers (captured by your zombie army, perhaps?) and a bit of time in a secluded location and you have a dozen or so (I assume some end up as "snacks") ghouls for your ghast to command. As long as you have suitable evil goals you can probably keep them in control without even resorting to rebuking. (And if you are dealing with a type of undead that gain control over their own spawn {Ghouls / ghasts don't, btw.} you could do it with only one rebuke...) After all, the ghoulies are better off with a big bad evil cleric and his bunch of skellies / zombies backing them up than without, right?

Obviously that isn't a perfect situation for our budding Necromancer, but IMHO it's a great one for the DM / players, as it opens up more tactical possibilities. Normally undead are assumed to just fight to the death, but a bunch of non-rebuked ghoulies might well foot it if things look to be going bad for their side... Not to mention the "spell components" that are liable to go missing as "snacks".