Undead warforged

Since the specific text is under "death by energy drain" and not merely gaining negative levels and a Warforged is immune to energy drain - then they can not become undead.

Correlation is not causation- what if the negative level ISN'T due to energy drain? You imply that immunity to energy drain makes them immune to becoming undead, but that's not the case. A warforged's immunity to energy drain merely makes them immune to gaining negative levels FROM energy drain, NOT from gaining negative levels at all! And it's the negative levels that can make a creature undead.

Now, admittedly, there aren't very many incidents where one can get negative levels WITHOUT an obvious energy drain effect as the cause, but it can happen- as is the case when a good creature attempts to wield an unholy weapon. If said creature is only first level, it's pretty clear that gaining a negative level (temporarily or not, and whatever the cause) will instantly kill it. Then what happens?

According to the glossary entry I quoted above (And two things about that: 1-it's an entry on 'negative levels' by itself, not attached to energy drain and, 2-it's an online reference and so presumably up to date with all current errata. I only point this out to avoid reference to the RC since its propriety is somehow in doubt AND it only references negative levels as linked to energy drain which doesn't help in answering this question.) someone slain by negative levels WILL RISE as something- without an undead creature as the cause, the default is rising as a wight.

Since we're bringing up controversial sources, I should point out that my original post (that warforged can become undead, it's just difficult finding an undead template that can be applied) is based on the official D&D faq on the WOTC site (see pg. 7 "Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead?"). The faq also points out how picking up unholy weapons can be lethal for first level good-aligned characters (pg. 59).
 

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I know you have historically not taken the RC as "official rules" but not only does the RC itself state that it dominates WotC also has said so (or that at the very least it contained errata {notably that was not included in the "free errata", but errata regardless)

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (<i>Rules Compendium</i>)

(a link to a web supplement to the RC which includes the living construct "type")

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rules Compendium)


As far as the Primary source rule goes



So if one doesn't read that the RC contains "official errata" {even though several sources state it does} then an argument could be made that it has no meaning whatsover.

Contains errata vs. is errata. d20SRD.org updates their content with errata'd changes. It contains errata. d20SRD.org is not, of itself, "an errata file" as specified in the primary source rule.

What do the articles you linked say about the Rules Compendium and Errata? It "includes errata" - it is not, of itself, errata. It is an attempt "to clarify" - clarification is not supposed to actually change things. It's supposed to "collect all the rules you need to play the game at the table in one place". It's not, of itself, errata. Just a quick reference guide.
 

Correlation is not causation- what if the negative level ISN'T due to energy drain? You imply that immunity to energy drain makes them immune to becoming undead, but that's not the case. A warforged's immunity to energy drain merely makes them immune to gaining negative levels FROM energy drain, NOT from gaining negative levels at all! And it's the negative levels that can make a creature undead.

Correct

Now, admittedly, there aren't very many incidents where one can get negative levels WITHOUT an obvious energy drain effect as the cause, but it can happen- as is the case when a good creature attempts to wield an unholy weapon. If said creature is only first level, it's pretty clear that gaining a negative level (temporarily or not, and whatever the cause) will instantly kill it. Then what happens?

Why? Only the FAQ answer leads to that conclusion.

According to the glossary entry I quoted above (And two things about that: 1-it's an entry on 'negative levels' by itself, not attached to energy drain and, 2-it's an online reference and so presumably up to date with all current errata. I only point this out to avoid reference to the RC since its propriety is somehow in doubt AND it only references negative levels as linked to energy drain which doesn't help in answering this question.) someone slain by negative levels WILL RISE as something- without an undead creature as the cause, the default is rising as a wight.

Since we're bringing up controversial sources, I should point out that my original post (that warforged can become undead, it's just difficult finding an undead template that can be applied) is based on the official D&D faq on the WOTC site (see pg. 7 "Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead?"). The faq also points out how picking up unholy weapons can be lethal for first level good-aligned characters (pg. 59).

The original question - yes they could be transformed into undead (but not by negative levels, unless the monster entry specifically states so. Negative levels transforming a creature into a wight is specifically listed only in conjuncture with "energy drain" in the SRD and in the DMG (the MM entry is lacking on the result of turning into a wight with negative levels from enrgy drain). Using an on-line glossery is at best questionable since it is by it's very nature a brief descriptin. In the absence of other other evidence I would use it, but we have other evidence that leads down a different path.

The FAQ on warforged and undead

Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an
undead?


A warforged isn’t immune to necromancy effects, so it can
be animated as or transformed into an undead, as long as the
effect, template, or monster description doesn’t otherwise bar
it. For example, only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can
become vampire spawn (according to the vampire’s create
spawn special attack), so a warforged couldn’t become a
vampire spawn. Another example: The zombie template states
that it “can be added to any corporeal creature . . . that has a
skeletal system.” (MM 265) A warforged is certainly a
corporeal creature, but it doesn’t seem like a warforged has a
skeletal system, so it couldn’t be animated as a zombie
A warforged isn’t immune to necromancy effects, so it can
be animated as or transformed into an undead, as long as the
effect, template, or monster description doesn’t otherwise bar
it.
For example, only humanoids and monstrous humanoids can
become vampire spawn (according to the vampire’s create
spawn special attack), so a warforged couldn’t become a
vampire spawn. Another example: The zombie template states
that it “can be added to any corporeal creature . . . that has a
skeletal system.” (MM 265) A warforged is certainly a
corporeal creature, but it doesn’t seem like a warforged has a
skeletal system, so it couldn’t be animated as a zombie.

Spells can cause energy drains (which a warforged is specifically immune to) but the animate dead spell (a necromancy spell) with a target of 1 corpse {no type mentioned} should work since it has nothing to do with energy drain.

As far as gaining negative levels from an unholy weapon

If a character gains a negative level by picking up an
unholy weapon, and this results in her negative levels
equaling her current level, is she killed even though the
negative level goes away as soon as she releases the
weapon?


Yes. The negative level gained from picking up an unholy
(or similar) weapon is just like a normal negative level in all
ways, except that it can’t result in actual level loss and can’t be
overcome in any way while the weapon is held.
If the negative level gained by picking up such a weapon
results in the character’s death from negative levels, she stays
dead even after the weapon drops from her lifeless hands (just
like a character killed by an enervation spell’s negative levels
stays dead even after the duration of the spell elapses).

There is a difference between being dead and becoming an undead from the effect.

But there is definitely room for confusion in this answer and interpretation.

IMO the FAQ is merely something that gives more evidence, and unless there is other evidence it might be the only thing we have to go on. In this case, it isn't and IMO taking the section of text about being dead from negative levels out of the context is in general bad form. The text (in the DMG) is written in conjunction with energy drain and not something that stands alone.
 
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Ok, for the most part I think you've convinced me. There simply isn't an explicit rule that says death from negative levels (that are gained separately from an energy drain effect) would do anything but simply kill you. Both the FAQ answer about unholy weapons and the SRD description of the enervation spell (which also gives neg levels without mentioning "energy drain") say it can kill you, but mention nothing about rising again as a wight. And you'd think that would be a fairly significant point to mention. ;) So I guess negative levels by themselves can kill you, but not make you a wight.

Now with the point conceded, I do still have some questions/comments on a few of your responses- but only to clear things up and avoid confusion.

Why? Only the FAQ answer leads to that conclusion.
Are you saying that a 1st level good character picking up an unholy weapon would not be killed as a result of the negative level gained? I'll admit that he won't become a wight because of it (although I think it's cooler if he does- it makes such weapons much more evil if they can create an evil creature that can then wield it in combat.) but I'm pretty sure the negative level will kill the character. Every source mentioned in this thread that talks about negative levels all agree that when you get as many as you have character levels- you die. I agree now that you don't necessarily become undead afterward- but you are slain.


Spells can cause energy drains (which a warforged is specifically immune to) but the animate dead spell (a necromancy spell) with a target of 1 corpse {no type mentioned} should work since it has nothing to do with energy drain.
Actually animate dead won't work because of the template problem. This is mentioned at the end of the faq entry you quoted. The spell might be able to target any corpse but it's effect is a templated creature. Both the skeleton and zombie templates require a corporeal creature with a skeletal system. If you go with the faq answer, which states they don't have a skeleton, then they can't be animated as either undead. If you ignore the faq and rule that they do have skeletons, then they can be animated by the spell.

As far as gaining negative levels from an unholy weapon...
There is a difference between being dead and becoming an undead from the effect.
Point conceded.


Just one last thing for my own clarification, because I try not to argue sloppily...
...taking the section of text about being dead from negative levels out of the context is in general bad form. The text (in the DMG) is written in conjunction with energy drain and not something that stands alone.
What was I taking out of context? I tried to only talk about the negative energy definition from the online glossary. And I don't think that was out of context. I mentioned only the glossary entry specifically because it was not in context with energy drain. Or are you talking about the being dead from negative levels in regards to the faq answer about unholy weapons? If so, then yes I think I was wrong about what it would do (bring you back as a wight) because of the glossary entry. I combined the death-by-negative-levels bit (in the unholy weapon faq) with the rise-as-a-wight result (from the glossary). I don't think that was out of context (although I do now think I was wrong) but I could have been more clear with regards to the connection I was inferring between the two sources.


Anyway, to sum up...
1) More neg levels that character levels = death (and nothing more)
2) Too many neg levels again, but his time from undead energy drain = death then rising as that type undead, or a wight
3) 1st level good guy vs. unholy weapon = dead good guy, but not undead non-good guy (although it's cooler if they do become undead)
and finally,
4) Without spells that strip away the living construct type, the only RAW undead that work on warforged are Spawn of Kyuss- provided one rules that warforged have a brain which can be burrowed into by the spawn worms. According to the faq (for whatever that's worth) they do have brains- see question on page six about having said brains extracted by mind flayers.


Actually, as a complete aside from the whole undead business, the entire warforged section of the faq is a rather haphazard, bizarre and somewhat contradictory explanation of warforged "biology." From the various questions it is inferred that warforged...
...are only slightly denser than other races and can swim with only mild difficulty.
...don't need to breathe but are vulnerable to depth pressure.
...are immune to fatigue and exhaustion, but still take non-lethal damage from overworking themselves (running, forced march, etc.).
...do not gain adamantine slam attacks even if they have the adamantine body feat.
...have a brain (edible by mind flayers no less) but no skeletal system.
:erm: Curiouser and curiouser.
 
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Just one last thing for my own clarification, because I try not to argue sloppily...

What was I taking out of context? I tried to only talk about the negative energy definition from the online glossary. And I don't think that was out of context. I mentioned only the glossary entry specifically because it was not in context with energy drain. Or are you talking about the being dead from negative levels in regards to the faq answer about unholy weapons? If so, then yes I think I was wrong about what it would do (bring you back as a wight) because of the glossary entry. I combined the death-by-negative-levels bit (in the unholy weapon faq) with the rise-as-a-wight result (from the glossary). I don't think that was out of context (although I do now think I was wrong) but I could have been more clear with regards to the connection I was inferring between the two sources.

Not you - but the glossary, which is an inherent problem with "glossaries" they tend to be incomplete and abreviated, in this case missing the context that the "rule" was written in.



Actually, as a complete aside from the whole undead business, the entire warforged section of the faq is a rather haphazard, bizarre and somewhat contradictory explanation of warforged "biology."

I agree. This is a problem with relying on the FAQ without any other supporting evidence. The writer(s) haave a tendency to provide a "quick and dirty" answer without actually looking up the rules.

There was one answer pertaining to the whether an item created by an artificer was "arcane" or "divine" but the Sage failed to check the errata that actually cleared up the issue (it was later caught by the Sage, but damage was done and reputation suffered accordingly). That is why, even I though I do consider the FAQ an authoritative document, it falls below other sources and I always try to find mutliple sources to use.
 


Thread necromancy in a thread about necromancy.... hmm. But you bring up a good point, that is another path for undead warforged. This would also work for a 20th level warforged dread necromancer.

On a side note- both of these options would be an interesting class option for warforged from a roleplaying perspective. Curiosity about life and death leads a creature who is somewhat outside of both to embrace necromancy. A twist on the classic trope of a robot who is "evil" only because of its complete lack of empathy. Or perhaps a character who believes that the warforged were created as a mockery of life by humanity decides to turn the tables and create its own pale imitations from the living.
 

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