Under Siege Update- How much does a commoner eat per day?

[Ace]

SNIP

It's true that a hypothetical create food item with no use limit could offer a solution. It would theoretically cost 27k, and activating it for seven hours nonstop could generate food for the whole city. But that's only if the DM allows arbitrary magic items, and (unwisely) goes strictly by the price guidelines in the DMG. I don't know anybody who actually plays that way.

Even if you do have "at will" items like that distribution of the food can be troublesome and will drain resources from the fight


As far as the guidelines as written I use them I to an extent --

in the High Magic Era version of my game a device like that called a Crucible and is standard in every city. There is usually one, a ore powerfull version that takes only 1 round to activate per 5 or 10K population


I guess it all really on how much magic is standard in your campaign

 

[Piratecat]

Xath, this may be an excellent time to research a higher-lvl create food and water spell.

 

[Darkness]

I mean, what else are they waiting for?

I agree, but they might be waiting for reinforcements or the conclusion of some magical ritual. Might.

 

[arscott]

First off: 200K?! That's a really large city, an exceptionally large one I think for most AD&D style milieus, like there'd only be a few of that size or larger, typically

I'm gonna have to agree with taliesin on this one. 200,000 people is way to large for a medieval city to support.

Remember, demographics have changed a bit since the medieval era. Today, most of the population lives in cities. back in the day, it was closer to 5%

The three most populous metropolitan areas in europe today are:
Moscow: 13.6 million
London: 11.9 million
Paris: 11.4 million
(figures from wikipedia)

but in the middle ages, there populations were:
London: 25-40 thousand
Paris: 50-80 thousand
and moscow topped out just above 200 thousand in the 15th century.

(source)

Medieval cities were simply unable to shelter the surrounding rural populace. there will be 10-20 people per bed, and unless everyone brought enough food to last them the duration of the seige, the city would just have to surrender or die from starvation.

And that doesn't even touch upon the probibility of desease in such a pre-hygenic environment.

 

[Darkness]

but in the middle ages, there populations were:
London: 25-40 thousand
Paris: 50-80 thousand

Not necessarily to disagree with your point, but they weren't the most populous then. (Dunno about Moscow, though.) Those were more in Italy.
Of course, the biggest Italian cities were more city-states.

 

[Banshee16]

So in our campaign, we're in a situation in which we need to figure out a way to provide for 200000+ refugees involved in a siege. Quite possibly, this will become an issue in other cities around the world soon. And there just aren't enough Clerics with Create Food/Water to provide for all of the people. Any tips on how to cope? How does magic alter siege in your world?

I'm currently reading a book about the Crusades, and IIRC, it mentioned that Crusaders needed to eat 2 lbs of food (bread) per day, or they would begin to weaken. I assume commoners might not get as much? I'm not sure how much is actually needed to keep a person alive....and the standards by which people 1000 years ago lived/survived are not the same as what we use today.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I'm gonna have to agree with taliesin on this one. 200,000 people is way to large for a medieval city to support.

Remember, demographics have changed a bit since the medieval era. Today, most of the population lives in cities. back in the day, it was closer to 5%

The three most populous metropolitan areas in europe today are:
Moscow: 13.6 million
London: 11.9 million
Paris: 11.4 million
(figures from wikipedia)

but in the middle ages, there populations were:
London: 25-40 thousand
Paris: 50-80 thousand
and moscow topped out just above 200 thousand in the 15th century.

(source)

Medieval cities were simply unable to shelter the surrounding rural populace. there will be 10-20 people per bed, and unless everyone brought enough food to last them the duration of the seige, the city would just have to surrender or die from starvation.

And that doesn't even touch upon the probibility of desease in such a pre-hygenic environment.

Well before the middle-ages, the city of Rome had 1,000,000 people at its height, IIRC...

Banshee

 

[arscott]

which makes it about the size of modern day dallas.

Modern day tokyo has 30 times that.

The point isn't so much that cities weren't very big, it's that they didn't constitue a very big portion of the overall populace. In our (first world) society, Almost everyone lives in rural or suburban areas. Modern Farming uses lots of land and lots of machines, but not very many people. I'd venture to guess that less than one percent of ENWorlders work in agriculture, but in the medieval world, it was over 80%.

The reason I posted the raw numbers is simply to point out that a city was a very different (and much smaller) animal in previous eras. I live in San Luis Obispo, a city small enough that almost nobody outside of california has heard of it, but at a population of over 50 thousand, it's bigger than medieval london, capital of an entire country, ever got.

 

[NewJeffCTHome]

Well before the middle-ages, the city of Rome had 1,000,000 people at its height, IIRC...

Banshee

And, I believe some cities in China & India were quite large back in Medieval Times as well. While D&D is generally Euro-focused, after the fall of Rome, it did go through the Dark Ages for several centuries, leading to smaller cities than elsewhere around the world.

If Rome did not fall, or if (before that) Alexander hadn't died in his early 30s, who knows how big cities would have gotten if there were no Dark Ages?

Some quick research online - the most populous cities circa 1500AD, Beijing, China had 672,000 population; a city in India beginning with the letter V was #2 at 500,000; Cairo, Egypt 400,000 and Hangzhou, China had 250,000. Top city in Europe was Paris, clocking in at 185,000 and #8 overall. Baghdad was the first world city over 1 million in 775 AD, but had gone down to like 800,000 in 800 AD. Bonus points for anybody that can correctly pronounce Hangzhou...

(source was geography.com)

So, in a world of magic, huge cities are certainly possible.

 

[arscott]

Bonus points for anybody that can correctly pronounce Hangzhou...

HAWN-joh, with the j pronounced like in bonjour, IIRC