Under the hood...

[takyris]

So I'm getting d20 Modern for Christmas, but have been checking under the hood with the SRD, and I had a couple of questions:

I tried to make a powerful unarmed combat guy. Doing so really allayed my fears of unarmed stuff being too weak in the game, but a couple of things were confusing, and I wanted to get people's opinions (or corrections from the book, or the Sage, or whatever).

If I take Combat Martial Arts, I'm considered armed, and I can do 1d4 lethal or nonlethal damage with a strike.

If I take Brawl, I get a +1 competence bonus on attacks with unarmed strikes, and I do 1d6 nonlethal damage.

So what happens if I take both?

a) I do 1d6 nonlethal damage and get a +1, or do 1d4 damage and DON'T get the +1 to hit. I'm either Brawling, or I'm using Martial Arts.

b) I do 1d6 lethal or nonlethal damage, and always get the +1 -- Brawling modifies my damage to 1d6, while Martial Arts modifies my strikes to be considered armed, and Brawling gives me a better knack for hitting people.

c) I do 1d6 nonlethal or 1d4 lethal, and always get the +1 -- Brawling gives me a better knack for hitting people, but I can only do my best work when doing nonlethal damage.

Not a huge problem, and maybe I'm just being thick, but I wanted to get clarifications.

Combining the Martial Artist with the Soldier gives me Improved Combat Martial Arts, which increased my unarmed threat range to 19-20, and the Soldier's Improved Critical, which bumps it up by one. This makes my threat range 18-20, yes?

Later, I add Advanced Martial artist, meaning that my criticals are 18-20/x3. Then, I add Knockout Punch and Improved Knockout Punch. Improved Knockout punch gives me a x3 critical. Does this mean that I use the d20-standard and make that auto-critical x4 nonlethal when attacking a flat-footed opponent?

I'm not worried about this being too powerful, for a number of reasons:

1) The character has to be pretty high level to get this stuff, and at this level, he could be shooting really well or talking really well or other stuff. And ALL this guy does is hit things. He's one-dimensional -- so he ought to be good at it.

2) That x4 critical just means that it's a certainty that someone is gonna have to make a save or get knocked out. And the save is always 15 -- it doesn't increase. So no worries about him being an automatic killing machine or anything...

Thanks for the help! Next step, random class combinations. Gonna see how a Smart/Tough guy makes out...

-Tacky

 

[Wudan Monkey]

Your a) would the correct answer, confirmed by Charles Ryan on the WoTC boards. Everything else you mentioned looks correct as well. Go get 'em, Rocky!

 

[Mistwell]

Here are the actual clairifications Charles Ryan posted so far on Brawl, CMA, and related topics. The solider combination you presented is a new (and nice) twist.

Q: “A few question about how brass knuckles operate. It states in their description that brass knuckles let you do lethal with an unarmed attack but that the attack is otherwise considered unarmed.

Also it states that if you have the brawl feat, that brass knuckles increase the base damage delt by +1 and turn the damage lethal.

SO...my two questions are this. Does the first part mean that even though people with brass knuckles can deal lethal, they still provoke attacks of opportunity when they attack.”

A: Attacks made with brass knuckles provoke attacks of opportunity just like normal unarmed attacks. Also, you cannot make attacks of opportunity with brass knuckles (just as you cannot make AoO with normal unarmed attacks).

Q: With brawl and brass knuckles is the +1 on top of the additional damage from brawl or in stead of. In other words, with brawl and brass knuckles: do I deal 1d6+1 lethat damage or 1D3+1 lethal?

A: 1d3+1.

Q: Do brass knuckles do +1 damage when used by a person with combat martial arts or are brass knuckles essentially useless to someone with combat martial arts (because they can already do lethal)

A: They offer no advantage when used with the Combat Martial Arts feats.

To summarize, brass knuckles allow a regular unarmed strike to do lethal damage (1d3). If a person with the brawl feat uses brass knuckles, they can choose to do either non-lethal brawl damage (1d6)or lethal 1d3+1. Either of these still draw attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. Brass knuckles have no effect for a person using Combat Martial Arts.

Q: There are several feats like "Brawl" that raise the amount of non-lethal damage you do when you make an unarmed attack. My question is if these translate into lethal damage if I have the combat martial arts feat. In other words, if I have combat martial arts and brawl, do I deal 1D6 lethal or nonlethal, my choice. Or it that I can deal 1d4 lethal (combat martial arts) or 1d6 nonlethal (brawl)?

A: At any given time, you use one feat or the other. In other words: If you want to deal nonlethal damage, and don't care if you're considered armed or unarmed, use the Brawl feat to deal 1d6 damage. If you want to deal lethal damage, and/or you want to make an unarmed attack of opportunity (or not provoke an AoO when making your unarmed attack), use the Combat Martial Arts feat and deal only 1d4 damage.

 

[takyris]

Mistwell, thanks! That helps a bunch.

So you think that if I'm using Martial Arts, I can't get the +1 competence bonus to unarmed attacks either? That's a bit of a bummer, though not a killer. That competence bonus was my main reason for taking Brawl.

Okay, then -- lose Brawl, and in its place, take Weapon Focus, which leads to the question of whether the Weapon Focus you get from getting the feat would stack with the Weapon Focus you get from the Soldier advanced class. Probably not, since they're both listed as Weapon Focus, even if they are unnamed bonuses. So lose Brawl, lose Weapon Focus, and take... oh, frell, I need Brawl to get Knockout Punch. So either Brawl is wasted, or maybe that +1 competence bonus stacks even when doing martial arts, regardless of whether the damage is Brawl-type or Martial Arts-type.

Extremely fun to put him together, though... I ended up with Strong3/Martial Artist6/Fast1/Soldier10 at 20th level. The auto-confirmed critical on my 1d8(18-20/x3) looked like a nice 20th level feature...

Now, to find out how max out a noncombatant. There's NO class with Bluff AND Sense Motive, darnit. Apparently I'm going to be playing a Charismatic Hero with a job as either a priest or a detective. Helloooo Chris Tucker from Rush Hour!

-Tacky

 

[Mistwell]

Now, to find out how max out a noncombatant. There's NO class with Bluff AND Sense Motive, darnit. Apparently I'm going to be playing a Charismatic Hero with a job as either a priest or a detective. Helloooo Chris Tucker from Rush Hour!

-Tacky

I am having some of the same kinds of trouble making a Vehicle Expert. There is no appropriate advanced class (I thought Daredevil was, but really it isn't), and no class has Pilot, Drive, Repair, and Concentrate. I can go Fast Hero for Pilot & Drive, and take an occupation like Blue Collar for repair, but Concentrate is a tough one. Two levels of the Personality advanced class would do it, but that has its own requirements and issues...

By the way, the Negotiator advanced class has both bluff and sense motive I believe.

 

[Unseelie]

I am having some of the same kinds of trouble making a Vehicle Expert. There is no appropriate advanced class (I thought Daredevil was, but really it isn't), and no class has Pilot, Drive, Repair, and Concentrate. I can go Fast Hero for Pilot & Drive, and take an occupation like Blue Collar for repair, but Concentrate is a tough one. Two levels of the Personality advanced class would do it, but that has its own requirements and issues...

By the way, the Negotiator advanced class has both bluff and sense motive I believe.

My roomie and I hashed over this one as well. His take was to give me a occupation that gave me access to the two skills I needed (was shooting for Drive, Pilot, Repair, and Disable Device) so I could make my over-the-top car thief/wheelman.

We also talked about making a new advanced class, as Daredevil doesn't really do what I was looking for.

Finally, I think the important thing to remember is that it's not that multiclassing is easy in D20M, it's encouraged and, IMO, expected.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Takyris - the other possibility you could look at is taking a dedicated hero who is either an adventurer, celebrity (chris tucker again), creative or entrepeneur.

As for the wheelman?
An adventurer gets 3 of 4 of those skills, missing only repair. You could pull that off with either a strong or smart hero.

Concentrate, pilot, drive and repair is much more tricky. You can get concentration and drive from tough hero. Repair is in a bunch of occupations, but non of them have repair AND pilot...

I'd suggest multiclassing. Cross-classing your primary skills tends not to be too big a deal, especially when you only have 4 which are core to your concept.

 

[Mistwell]

Here are answers to your initial questions, directly from Charles Ryan:

Q:Combining the Martial Artist with the Soldier gives you Improved Combat Martial Arts, which increases unarmed threat range to 19-20, and the Soldier's Improved Critical, which bumps it up by one. This makes my threat range 18-20, correct?

A: If I understand your question correctly, you're asking if the 19-20 threat range from Improved Combat Martial Arts stacks with the increase in threat range from the soldier's Improved Critical class ability. (Assuming, of course, that unarmed strike is the weapon chosen by the soldier for his weapon specialization class ability.)

The answer is Yes. A 5th-level soldier who chose unarmed strike as his weapon specialization back at 2nd level has a threat range of 18-20 if he also has the Improved Combat Martial Arts feat.

Q: Later, add Advanced Martial artist, meaning that criticals are 18-20/x3. Then, add Knockout Punch and Improved Knockout Punch. Improved Knockout punch gives you a x3 critical. Does this mean that you use the d20-standard and make that auto-critical x4 nonlethal when attacking a flat-footed opponent?

A: No. The benefits from the Combat Martial Arts feats do no stack with those of the Brawl feats.

--------------------
Charles Ryan
Editor, RPG R&D
Wizards of the Coast


[Note: That last ruling is pretty significant. Before, he just ruled on the Brawl/CMA combination. Now the ruling extends to the entire chain of Brawl & CMA feats.]

 

[Bagpuss]

Next he'll be telling us you can't use Dodge at the same time as Personal Firearms Proficiency.

 

[takyris]

Bummer. Personally, I didn't see how a x4 was going to do that much to unbalance the game, given that it had to be nonlethal, and I was already probably getting more than someone's Con in damage on an ordinary strike. But that's the way it goes...

It's a shame, because I really liked the idea of using brawling tactics in combination with martial arts -- there was something very true to life about that. (Most martial artists could benefit from a friendly, nonlethal bar fight every now and then to teach them what really works.)

I suspect, however, that taking Power Attack instead won't be something I regret.

-Tacky