underwhelmed with Neverwinter Campaign Setting

[Matt James]

I'll buy your book back Retreater. Just forward me the receipt. You seem hell-bent on arguing against anything anyone presents anyways. By the amount of time you've spent on this thread, I can estimate this has been a traumatic life experience for you.

Edit: Just PM me the details.

 

[Mirtek]

There are no maps of numerous locations including Thay,

Actually Thay is basically on the other side of the continent from Neverwinter. They have an expeditionary force around Neverwinter, but the actual country is ~2,500 miles away

 

[Dead Scribe]

Could you cite those numerous reasons because I just read through the entire thread and it seems there is only one reason... Neverwinter gives you more for more money, even thopugh they are the same type of product and serve the same purpose in-game. Which is kinda like saying you can't compare two adventures if they have different page counts, which IMO, seems stupid in and of itself.

Hammerfast is basically a backdrop for players to use as a home base as they go off on other adventures. Most of the details are focused on describing the city itself, with a paragraph or so on major businesses, and a lot of color detail that keeps the city interesting enough that it's not just an inn and a weapon shop to the players. There are a couple villains and suggested adventures based around the city, including a pretty nasty high-level dragon, but not really enough to make anything but a barebones story for a multi-level campaign. For what it is, Hammerfast is a very nice product, and I recommend it highly.

Neverwinter is not a backdrop--it's a campaign construction manual. It has half a dozen major factions with distinct themes and leaders, and detailed information on the leaders plots. It also has a lot of space devoted to how those factions interact with the players, and with each other. It also has has at least half a dozen smaller factions who play supporting roles to the players and their enemies.

The city itself gets quite a bit of page space, but focuses on bigger-picture locations that are likely to feature as adventure spots and player destinations (Castle Neverwinter, the Graveyard, the spellplagued chasm and the Wall that surrounds it)--unlike Hammerfast, it doesn't really linger on color details about the local seamstress and alchemist. The book also details half a dozen other major locations, and numerous minor ones, that surround Neverwinter--and explains why they are important to Neverwinter and to the players.

All of this is linked together by the Character Themes that are provided to players. The book is littered with sidebars explaining how to tie character Themes to the locations and people of Neverwinter--in other words, how to build a campaign. And the Theme descriptions themselves give the player that chooses them a strong concept of their character's background and motivations in the campaign.

So when people say things like "Neverwinter doesn't tell me how to build a campaign," or "It's just Hammerfast with more locations" without mentioning the Themes, that tells me that the people talking haven't actually read the book. Hammerfast is a location--Neverwinter is a campaign. It's much more useful for a DM and their players build a tightly focused campaign than any previous campaign guide. If you just want a colorful location to base your adventures that you're creating or getting from another source, Hammerfast is a great product. If you have no interest in actually running a Neverwinter campaign, you probably shouldn't buy the Neverwinter Campaign Book. But if you want a book that tells you how to put together a Neverwinter campaign--one that can be used over and over and produce a different campaign every time--then Neverwinter is a great resource, I think.

 

[Imaro]

Hammerfast is basically a backdrop for players to use as a home base as they go off on other adventures. Most of the details are focused on describing the city itself, with a paragraph or so on major businesses, and a lot of color detail that keeps the city interesting enough that it's not just an inn and a weapon shop to the players. There are a couple villains and suggested adventures based around the city, including a pretty nasty high-level dragon, but not really enough to make anything but a barebones story for a multi-level campaign. For what it is, Hammerfast is a very nice product, and I recommend it highly.

Now I feel like you might be misrepresenting exactly what you get with Hammerfast...

As far as antagonists in Hammerfast go... here's just a few and it seems significantly more than a handful, and quite a few based in the actual town of Hammerfast as opposed to just the surrounding area...

1. Serlek's Gang
2. Carthain's Gang
3. The Rockguard Clan
4. Joren Deathkeeper
5. The Circle of Stone
6. Thar
7. Calastryx
8. Trade Guild
9. Lore Guild
10. Craft Guild
11. Orc Tribes: Bloodspear Orcs/Weeping Skull Tribe
12. Queen Stravalla of Winter's Mourning
13. Spider Goblins
14. Swiftriver Halfling Clan
15. The Deep Burrow Gang (kobolds)
16. Barrthak the dwarf lich
17. Baldreg Skullbreaker the high priest of Gruumsh

There are also many that I didn't list that can become anatagonists or allies depending on the actions of the PC's. Just reading through the book there are tons of adventure hooks in the actual city... from the political maneuverings of the Guilds, the goals of various NPC's, the machinations of the Stone Circle and so on. So I disagree that Hammerfast is suppose to serve mainly as a backdrop and homebase for adventuring in the wilderness.

Neverwinter is not a backdrop--it's a campaign construction manual. It has half a dozen major factions with distinct themes and leaders, and detailed information on the leaders plots. It also has a lot of space devoted to how those factions interact with the players, and with each other. It also has has at least half a dozen smaller factions who play supporting roles to the players and their enemies.

So again... it's an argument of more, not necessarily anything they do differently, since the goals and plots of the antagonists I listed above are all in the actual Hammerfast product. Now Hammerfast does (and IMO rightly so) leave how these factions interact with each other and with the players up to the DM... but that's a question of what do you want decided for you and what do you want more freedom with.

The city itself gets quite a bit of page space, but focuses on bigger-picture locations that are likely to feature as adventure spots and player destinations (Castle Neverwinter, the Graveyard, the spellplagued chasm and the Wall that surrounds it)--unlike Hammerfast, it doesn't really linger on color details about the local seamstress and alchemist. The book also details half a dozen other major locations, and numerous minor ones, that surround Neverwinter--and explains why they are important to Neverwinter and to the players.

What do color details have to do with whether something is a campaign setting or a backdrop? IMO, Everwatch in Dragon magazine is a backdrop and homebase for PC's... neither NWCS or Hammerfast are this.

More and more this seems like a taste issue. I find those details you dismiss are what makes the setting of Hammerfast come alive for me... while telling me what the interactions and relationships of factions is something I want the ability to do for myself in a sandbox...YMMV of course.

Oh, and for the record... Hammerfast also details locations of adventure around it such as Two Roads, or HighPeak among others. So the difference again seems to boil down to more.

All of this is linked together by the Character Themes that are provided to players. The book is littered with sidebars explaining how to tie character Themes to the locations and people of Neverwinter--in other words, how to build a campaign. And the Theme descriptions themselves give the player that chooses them a strong concept of their character's background and motivations in the campaign.

Now this I can somewhat understand because there are no themes in Hammerfast, though honestly I find themes a good addition to 4e... I also find the ones in NWCS slightly limiting since there are only so many themes and they are very specific... if you don't particularly care for any of them or they don't fit your character concept then they don't matter. Moreso, IMO, since Hammerfast is set in the default world it's easy enough for the players and DM to tie almost any theme into the setting and this provides alot more variety... and allows for as tight or loose a connection as the DM and players want in your campaign.

So when people say things like "Neverwinter doesn't tell me how to build a campaign," or "It's just Hammerfast with more locations" without mentioning the Themes, that tells me that the people talking haven't actually read the book. Hammerfast is a location--Neverwinter is a campaign. It's much more useful for a DM and their players build a tightly focused campaign than any previous campaign guide. If you just want a colorful location to base your adventures that you're creating or getting from another source, Hammerfast is a great product. If you have no interest in actually running a Neverwinter campaign, you probably shouldn't buy the Neverwinter Campaign Book. But if you want a book that tells you how to put together a Neverwinter campaign--one that can be used over and over and produce a different campaign every time--then Neverwinter is a great resource, I think.

So it seems your argument rests mainly on the inclusion of very specific themes? Fair enough, though for $10 I can get more than enough themes and backgrounds to tie vastly more character concepts into Hammerfast along with a multitude of other stuff... vs. the cost of the NWCS. So again, IMO... Hammerfast was a better bang for my buck.

 

[Dead Scribe]

More and more this seems like a taste issue.

No dude, it's not an issue of taste. You're saying Neverwinter doesn't do anything differently than Hammerfast. I pointed out exactly what it does, and you replied that you don't want the extra things that it does.

I don't care about which one you like better, I just care that you're not honestly stating what the products are.

 

[Imaro]

No dude, it's not an issue of taste. You're saying Neverwinter doesn't do anything differently than Hammerfast. I pointed out exactly what it does, and you replied that you don't want the extra things that it does.

I don't care about which one you like better, I just care that you're not honestly stating what the products are.

Nice way to quote out of context. So anyway, it has more/deeper info and themes... got it. I conceded that awhile ago, it was your later statements about Hammerfast (it not being a campaign setting but just a homebase/backdrop, only having a handful of antagonists, not enough info to run a heroic-tier campaign, etc.) many of which were incorrect, that prompted a response on my part. For someone so concerned about my "honesty" about NWCS... it would seem that you would hold the same standard to yourself concerning your comments about Hammerfast.

Honestly, where except for when I claimed the write-ups were only a paragraph (which I later conceded I was in error about) have I mis-represented what is in the book. I mentioned themes and the bladesinger class in my second or third post and said NWCS was broader. No, IMO, your issue definitely seems more concerned with my preference for Hammerfast over NWCS as a better buy for the cost.

 

[Scribble]

Haven't even looked at NWCS yet, but I wanted to say I think Hammerfast is one of my favorite 4e products, so if it's anything like Hammerfast I will like it!

 

[delericho]

Um, probably still rubbish. The U.S. Census Bureau indicates that in 2009, just shy of 70% of U.S. households have broadband access. I mean let's be real, it's 2011, not 2000--the audience for RPGs today almost universally has internet access at home. You can barely even apply for a job without internet access these days.

Actually, my understanding is that there is a disproportionately large number of gamers either in the armed forces or in jail. Those two groups, despite their obvious and huge differences, may well have this in common: a lack of easy access to the internet.

 

[S'mon]

Actually Thay is basically on the other side of the continent from Neverwinter. They have an expeditionary force around Neverwinter, but the actual country is ~2,500 miles away

But there's a good sized chunk of the NWCS devoted to detailing an area of Thay! It's under attack by Netheril. From what I can tell the PCs are supposed to get there by trekking through the Shadowfell, but without any maps I found the whole thing very confusing.

 

[Imaro]

But there's a good sized chunk of the NWCS devoted to detailing an area of Thay! It's under attack by Netheril. From what I can tell the PCs are supposed to get there by trekking through the Shadowfell, but without any maps I found the whole thing very confusing.

This is, from what I can tell, an example of that extra broadness I was saying may or may not be worth the extra cost, of the NWCS vs. something like Hammerfast, depending on your mileage and how it varies. If you already have the FRCS and/or access to old maps... or are willing to put in the extra work to create your own maps, including that breadth concerning Thay is great. Otherwise it's just wasted words at a higher price.