Unearthed Arcana 3.5....where besides Kazaa?

[LightPhoenix]

There are many valid applications for peer to peer, most of which haven't been taken advantage of yet.

<snip>

This whole copyright thing has very little to do with peer to peer. The old Napster had the same problems, and wasn't peer to peer. They got shut down because they hosted the files. That's the crime, not creating a client that utilizes peer to peer technology.

You're right, it's not the crime, and US courts have agreed with you.

And to reply to SSquirrel, you're right... it's not the instrument, but the person that commits a crime.

However, guns are highly regulated (in the US). A large number of shootings are made with guns are illegally acquired - stolen from relatives, burglaries, and what have you. The amount of irresponsibility with guns (here in the US) that still exists despite numerous gun control laws just says to me they need to be regulated even further.

Now contrast that to peer-to-peer. PtP has no regulation what-so-ever. While PtP can be used for good, a large part of it is used irresponsibly. We have gun control laws to prevent irresponsible behavior. For example, owners need to lock up their guns around children, need to undergo background checks, and need to be registered. Where are the laws that punish irresponsibility for the PtP networks?

I would agree with you about PtP writers not being responsible if they took action against piracy - just like many NRA members take strong stances in favor of gun control, because guns can and are used irresponsibly, often. It's the same with most Army people I know - they make darn sure that people use guns responsibly. However, the fact of the matter is that the creators of these PtP networks helped create a problem, and instead of doing the responsible thing and speaking out against piracy and helping to enforce it, they seem to think it's not their problem. Which is terribly irresponsible.

 

[TheBadElf]

Guess what? Here's a name. And trust me, you don't want to see this face right now. Because I too am broke, with a wonderfully popular novel that a few thousand may have read but only 1/3 gave me a few bucks for my hard work and effort.

Hey Mach - if you could be so kind as to post or email me with your name or titles of your published novels, I'd love to check 'em out at the local bookstore. Always glad to see a fellow ENWorlder actually getting published (I know there are a lot of you...I'll get there someday myself...).

 

[barsoomcore]

Hey Mach - if you could be so kind as to post or email me with your name or titles of your published novels, I'd love to check 'em out at the local bookstore. Always glad to see a fellow ENWorlder actually getting published (I know there are a lot of you...I'll get there someday myself...).

Darn tootin'! We gots to stand up for our own!

If WE won't buy each other's books, who will?



Seriously, Mach, let us know if you can. I will make the effort, and I'm sure many here will.

 

[Nifelhein]

Just to add something, who here uses a legal copy of Windows, office and every single porgra installed in your machine? Because I certainly don't... in fact I think I have never bought a Microsoft program and never bought programs from many computing companies there...

On the P2P, sure it needs regulation, the question is, why does it work so well? If the prices were not so high things could go other ways, what if the CDs came with the musics in mp3 and a video too? An artist here in Brazil did it, sold the damn CD with a magazine and you could get it anywhere, guess the price? Only U$ 2.00 (while a CD is usually around U$7.00). It worked, he sold more copies than most greta artists around... it was an independent work.

And what about the books? How many of you have bought a book and received with it a key to download the OGL content of it oevr the internet? Or have a version of it with only text that was given for each copy owner?

How about Dream Theater who have some musics that can only be downloaded over the internet while the original CD is in the drive? P2P work well while the product itself offers nothing more than what one can get illegaly for free... only a bad businessman would not realize that having a differential can make more people behave like me and SSquirrel instead of the mere download and print guys around...

 

[SSquirrel]

Just to add something, who here uses a legal copy of Windows, office and every single porgra installed in your machine? Because I certainly don't... in fact I think I have never bought a Microsoft program and never bought programs from many computing companies there...

On the MS front I got lucky. My university had an agreement with MS and I got XP Pro for $7 and same for Office XP Pro. Saved about 600 bucks or so heh. I will freely admit tho that my favorite telnet program (SecureCRT) is a crack b/c I can't swing 100 bucks for it. There are other decent free ones out there, but I'm using ver 3.3 which is several versions old and it works well.

On the P2P, sure it needs regulation, the question is, why does it work so well? If the prices were not so high things could go other ways, what if the CDs came with the musics in mp3 and a video too? An artist here in Brazil did it, sold the damn CD with a magazine and you could get it anywhere, guess the price? Only U$ 2.00 (while a CD is usually around U$7.00). It worked, he sold more copies than most greta artists around... it was an independent work.

How about Dream Theater who have some musics that can only be downloaded over the internet while the original CD is in the drive? P2P work well while the product itself offers nothing more than what one can get illegaly for free... only a bad businessman would not realize that having a differential can make more people behave like me and SSquirrel instead of the mere download and print guys around...

CD prices are ridiculously high and that is the main thing that tempts most people to not pay for anything. I mean when you can get 50 CDRs for $5 after rebate, why not? That's the attitude.

There's lots of bands who do something similar to Dream Theater there. Duran Duran, Aphex Twin and System of a Down are some I know who have used the Get Connected system so people can watch extra features and such. They Might Be Giants and Ween both give out free mp3s on their site and encourage people to record and trade their live shows, as does Phish. Phish and Metallica (just recently) both now offer download of their shows for a small fee. Phish charges 9.95 for an entire show in mp3 format I know. Metallica is similar I believe.

Ween is actually going a step beyond that. They're getting someone to make some software that fans can download and it sits in your system tray like AIM or many other programs. You can use it to jump to Ween IRC and other chat groups, trade lists, and there will only be a few people outside the band (known dedicated show recorders) that are allowed to upload to it. Once stuff is uploaded there everyone is free to grab whatever they want. They're doing this so that good copies of all their live music makes it up instead of someone putting up bad copies. Some people have no ethics and will trade bad material that is somewhat rare for other rare stuff and the guys in Ween don't like that *grin* Pretty cool band and a very fun live show.

Ok, that was a tangent *grin*

Hagen

 

[Mach2.5]

The real criminals can overcome these hassles - I'm the one getting inconvenienced, and paying big for the privilege.

Your right on the mark with this one. Generally, for any industry, the costs to alleviate the threat of copyright infringment, protection of intellectual property, etc, are almost always greater than the amount of actual revenue lost due to criminal activity. Its far more the principle of the matter. No company wants to not take a stand against criminal activity, but such measures have and always will be only a minor detriment to the criminal, but the cost of implementation is then carried on the shoulders of the consumer. That's what is sad, especially in the field of literature where the expenditures have barely increased in over 20 years, yet the cost of purchase has risen disproportionately. Authors are not making that much more than they would have 15 years ago, yet even in only 15 years the price of an average paperback has risen 30% or more.

Hey Mach - if you could be so kind as to post or email me with your name or titles of your published novels, I'd love to check 'em out at the local bookstore. Always glad to see a fellow ENWorlder actually getting published (I know there are a lot of you...I'll get there someday myself...).

No. Two reasons though: I no longer make any money from the sales of the previous novels. I took a contract up the rear and now I'm paying for it. Buying any of the previous novels would only put money into a publisher I am no longer affiliated with. Second, lets simply say that Eric's Grandma would certainly not have approved of the material in the slightest (yup, it was some of those kinds of books). Third (yes, I said only two), I'm switching to writing contemporary science fiction, something I should have started with in the first place. I am pitching a novel currently, but its touchy. I am very doubtful that I can sell anyone on it without first having something else worthwhile under my belt. If I get a deal though, you bet your arse I'm coming here to plug it (btw, thanks for the offers guys, makes me feel all worm and fuzzy inside).

 

[Ranger REG]

Just to add something, who here uses a legal copy of Windows, office and every single porgra installed in your machine?

* raises hand *

Because I certainly don't... in fact I think I have never bought a Microsoft program and never bought programs from many computing companies there...

Are you sure you want to post that as an admission of guilt? Not that you're displaying a feeling of remorse, more like a boast.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Just to add something, who here uses a legal copy of Windows, office and every single porgra installed in your machine? Because I certainly don't... in fact I think I have never bought a Microsoft program and never bought programs from many computing companies there...

Irrelevant. Just because lots of people do it doesn't mean it's any less illegal. I'd be lying if I said I've never tried downloading pirated software or music, but I don't try and justify it. It was illegal.

P2P, sure it needs regulation, the question is, why does it work so well? If the prices were not so high things could go other ways, what if the CDs came with the musics in mp3 and a video too? An artist here in Brazil did it, sold the damn CD with a magazine and you could get it anywhere, guess the price? Only U$ 2.00 (while a CD is usually around U$7.00). It worked, he sold more copies than most greta artists around... it was an independent work.

Regardless of the problems with the music industry here in the US (and presumably Brazil as well, based on your comments), it doesn't make it right for it to be used illegally. I personally believe the record companies have been ripping off artists and consumers for decades now. Just because they choose to try and bilk people, doesn't make it right for those people to break the law.

That's great to hear about the artist there, and that's the kind of thing that I would like to start happening all over - artists are responsible for selling their own stuff, and get all the profits from their hard work.

And what about the books? How many of you have bought a book and received with it a key to download the OGL content of it oevr the internet? Or have a version of it with only text that was given for each copy owner?

I've never heard of that, which companies do that? Technically, that's not peer-to-peer, that's downloading off of a server (presumably the copyright holder's) though.

How about Dream Theater who have some musics that can only be downloaded over the internet while the original CD is in the drive?

Again, that's not strictly peer-to-peer... you're downloading the additional stuff off of a central server.

P2P work well while the product itself offers nothing more than what one can get illegaly for free... only a bad businessman would not realize that having a differential can make more people behave like me and SSquirrel instead of the mere download and print guys around...

Incentives such as plain text versions of the OGL content, additional content from bands, and the like is great, but that stuff can be distributed just as easily over PtP networks. And people who are going to download stuff illegally aren't likely to spend money on the real deal, even for extras - they'll just see if they can get the extras illegally too.

The fact is, while guys (or women) like you and SSquirrel are certainly responsible enough to actually own what you download, I'd bet my life that the vast majority of people have no moral qualms about downloading music (the big offended) off of Kazaa and the like. It's even become almost socially acceptable to do so. Still doesn't make it any less wrong to do though.

 

[kenjib]

The fact is, while guys (or women) like you and SSquirrel are certainly responsible enough to actually own what you download, I'd bet my life that the vast majority of people have no moral qualms about downloading music (the big offended) off of Kazaa and the like. It's even become almost socially acceptable to do so. Still doesn't make it any less wrong to do though.

I disagree. If a law is unenforceable, the law doesn't serve the people, and people don't serve the law, then it's time to change the law. Laws are not some universal constant. They are created by people to serve people. The only issue now is finding a way to change the law in such a way that still provides incentive for people to create new information. The current system doesn't do that very efficiently at all for music, so you actually don't have to do that much. The vast majority of musicians don't see the profits of their work - only a tiny handful of them do. In fact, most musicians don't even *own* the rights to their own work. The publishers take everything. There's no reason to defend this system from a moral standpoint if a better system can take it's place. The bar for publishing and distribution has been drastically lowered but unfortunately legal legacies are introducing large inefficiencies.

EDIT: I think we are witnessing a large scale backlash of civil disobedience against the current extent to which we treat knowledge as property. The law is out of sync with public opinion.

 

[WayneLigon]

I think we are witnessing a large scale backlash of civil disobedience against the current extent to which we treat knowledge as property. The law is out of sync with public opinion.

Maybe, to a degree. I think more likely is that the early days of both computing and the huge internet bubble inadvertantly trained the populace to expect all online content should be free and then they got ticked off when it was suggested that that should not be the case (after companies found out you could not, after all, make any cash from 'eyeballs'). I suspect another 'shift' about the pricing (or existance) of online content is on the way and it probably won't be a very pleasent one.