Unearthed Arcana 3.5....where besides Kazaa?

[CRGreathouse]

Well, I have to say this is what converted me to 3.5... and through me, my entire gaming group.

 

[SSquirrel]

Oddly enough, WOTC answered questions when 3E was coming out both here on enworld and in various interviews where they were asked the same kind of things "What about people who refuse to buy your books and just print out the SRD?" "How can you make money if no one buys the books?" etc. They basically responded with a "well we can't do anything about that really and it IS perfectly legal, however, we feel that most people will still buy the books as they are more convenient, have more information (as not everything in the books is OGC), etc blah blah" (not a real quote).

So they realize the issue and part of the price of WOTC books has non-sales from the hardcore freebie only folks figured in. How many people does everyone in here HONESTLY know who refuses to buy the core books and just uses the SRD material? I know a few who just utilize some pdfs folks made of the changes from 3 to 3.5 and refuse to repurchase the core books for a higher price than they bought them originally. This of course seems reasonable to me as you have teh basic book, just some of the things changed in it.

The SRD doesn't have any Bigby or Mordenkainen spells. No mentions of Greyhawk or its gods. That material is not OGC, it is WOTC copyrights. So really you ARE missing out if you strictly utilize SRD only material, but it DOES make for a good quick reference, which is how most folks I know utilize it. It's the easy way for people to answer "what is the spell progression for a 7th level wizard?" when they're at work and have net access. Heh.

Hagen

 

[kenjib]

I agree that if WotC didn't want people to get the material for free, then this wouldn't be allowed under the OGL. It's clear as day (well, in legalese at least) in the OGL and SRD.

Any legal language needs to say what it does and expect to be fully used. It needs to be clear and enforcable. Anyone who accepts the legal terms should understand what they are agreeing to and be fine with it. Creating a legal agreement in the hopes that people won't use it is absurd, in my opinion, and I seriously doubt that WotC would make such a big mistake. It is very clearly bad business sense. Now, if 3rd party companies don't fully consider the ramnifications of the OGL when they agree to it, then maybe they should hire a lawyer and be more careful about legal agreements they make in the future. In any case, it's not fair to blame people for using licensed material just because someone else didn't understand what they were getting into when they opened it.

I imagine that most of the 3rd party d20 companies out there know full well that their stuff can be copied at will and they are fine with it because the ability to leverage the d20 brand has given them much greater benefit than the potential loss due to OGL replication. Furthermore, the OGL clearly allows them to determine which parts they want to open and some publications have been more protective in this regard than others. If people don't want something re-distributed then they can leave it closed. There are networking/referral/marketing benefits to having something open and re-distributed by others, regardless of whether those others charge or not.

If companies want people to ask permission to use their material, or only want their material replicated in commercial products, or only want a certain percentage of open content replicated in any one place, then they need to create a different license, just like WotC did with the d20 license. The OGL does not do these things.

 

[Davelozzi]

The SRD doesn't have any Bigby or Mordenkainen spells.

The spells are in the SRD, just without the proper name. Look under Crushing Hand rather than Bigby's Crushing Hand, or Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow.

 

[Matafuego]

I've always seen the OGL as the way Linux and Open Source Codes work.
And they seem to do fine.

 

[SSquirrel]

The spells are in the SRD, just without the proper name. Look under Crushing Hand rather than Bigby's Crushing Hand, or Acid Arrow instead of Melf's Acid Arrow.

I stand corrected. However, the standing rule of no proper names (especially copyrighted ones) still holds true *grin*

Hagen

 

[Nifelhein]

OGL is just that, open gaming material, you can use it provided that you folllow the few rules in it, you can print a thing, use other people's work that is published under the OGL terms and so on. It is not illegal and it surely is not against any moral code I am aware of.

Of course that by buying the book you are actually telling them that the work has support in the market and also, paying creators and artistst for their work. Downloading a book scan in itself canot be considered illegal, if you use the book than you are surely breaking laws, copyrights and the like, when you pay for a book you don't really buy a damn physical copy of the thing, you are paying for the material and the content, the licenses and copyrights. This is clear on the roms and emulators, one can have the rom in their computer as long as they own the cartridge.

If you have the book and then make a pdf out of it, do not share it and encourages the purchases of it, then you surely are not breaking any law, if you download the book and take a peek befoe buying it, it is okay too, to keep the pdf or not would much more make any crime harder to be defended against, that is for sure.

And also, Kazaa is a good thing, the problem is that we think we can get things for free and the truth is that we are actually getting things at the sacrifice of those who produced it. I prefer to own the book and not a single pdf has seen use out of me, be it a free download or not, I printed part of the SRD for 3.5 and used it until I got the money to buy the 3 core rules, that was in no way legal, because I had a license that made it okay.

It is really innocent a comment that says it was not the intent, yes it was, the OGL step of D&D has made to the rpg market a move much like IBM has made on computers many years ago, sure there are MAc users arpund, but how many of us have IBM structure pcs? You have the "WotC Core Rules" (Micro proceessor and Motherboard by Intel, fo example), then "FFG Legends and Lairs Series" (Video and Sound cards) and so on and so forth...

I have not downloaded anything for a long time now, reviews and previews always work well, but many publishers are still so close minded as to not release previews, which can take the lead for a puchase for me.

 

[SSquirrel]

Of course that by buying the book you are actually telling them that the work has support in the market and also, paying creators and artistst for their work. Downloading a book scan in itself canot be considered illegal, if you use the book than you are surely breaking laws, copyrights and the like, when you pay for a book you don't really buy a damn physical copy of the thing, you are paying for the material and the content, the licenses and copyrights. This is clear on the roms and emulators, one can have the rom in their computer as long as they own the cartridge.

If you have the book and then make a pdf out of it, do not share it and encourages the purchases of it, then you surely are not breaking any law, if you download the book and take a peek befoe buying it, it is okay too, to keep the pdf or not would much more make any crime harder to be defended against, that is for sure.

I know that with regard to mp3s to keep them on your hard drive you are SUPPOSED to have a physical copy of the product, hence fair use applies. You can download and listen to something and then delete it. All well and good. Nothing wrong there, that method is like listening to the radio. Most folks skip the last step. Keeping it afterwards IS the illegal part.

And also, Kazaa is a good thing, the problem is that we think we can get things for free and the truth is that we are actually getting things at the sacrifice of those who produced it. I prefer to own the book and not a single pdf has seen use out of me, be it a free download or not, I printed part of the SRD for 3.5 and used it until I got the money to buy the 3 core rules, that was in no way legal, because I had a license that made it okay.

See ignoring all pdfs out there is silly IMO. Official eratta from most companies is only seen in pdf format anymore. Actually the printing of the 3.5SRD for your own use was perfectly legal and is, in fact, one of the proper and intended uses of the OGL.

Hagen

 

[Amal Shukup]

Two out of the five novels I've had published are right there, on Kazaa. And its right now on three times as many hardrives as the original book sold! Wow, I thought. People liked it so much that its everywhere. They also liked Kazaa so much that I had to quit writing full time.

In NO WAY am I advocating or defending the illegal copying of books. Theft is theft is theft. 'Kay?

However, there is a false premise in the above comment that I regularly see crop up in discussions of this nature. I feel that this premise creates substantial confusion when trying to get a handle on the issue of online copying and distribution of books:

It is regularly assumed that every one of these 'stolen' copies somehow represents lost revenue. This is ludicrous and grossly distorts the impact of the phenomenon. The vast majority of these illegal downloaders are not/were not potential customers. They could be::

- Inveterate Criminals (in which case they weren't going to buy anyway)
- Not actually interested in the product, downloaded it on 'spec' or by mistake
- Too poor. Lots of kids in this category...
- Unable to get/use a legitimate copy (no local distribution, blind, housebound, etc.)


I'm NOT saying these people are 'legitimate'. Just that most (vast, vast, vast majority) were not going to pony up cash anyway, and should not be therefore be entered into the books as a 'loss'. Most probably never even read the books in question (it's quite difficult reading a whole novel at the computer). If they actually liked it enough that this became an issue, they probably went out and got a real copy.

Of course, odds are they borrowed it from a friend, signed it out of a library, or bought it from a used book store - all perfectly legal transactions that don't generate any revenue for the original publisher or author either.

Guess we gotta make all that illegal too. Darn Libraries...

I borrowed a novel from a buddy a while back. I had seen it dozens of times in the bookstores, didn't look like my kind of thing... Have since bought 14 of that author's novels - 5 in hard cover... Bought the one I originally borrowed no less than 3 times - I keep lending it to people (Ack! FREE distribution! NO!!! How dare I?!).

I downloaded (legally!!) a first novel of a series once. Read 2 chapters before I went and bought it. 21 books with that author's name on it now grace my shelves. Worked so well for him that his latest hardcover contained a CD with EVERY SINGLE Novel in the series, and PERMISSION to distribute the contents... Not even locked-down PDFs, but RTF and the like. Interesting no?

Most people who can WILL pay a fair price for a product they want given the opportunity. I believe this and I've seen evidence for it many times. Treating customers like criminals (most IP holders these days - NOT WOTC to their credit) or like suckers (the music publishers since always) is NOT the solution to this.

<additional things that are also 'not the solution' deleted to avoid offering direct political and legislative commentary not appropriate to this venue>

USING free distribution (and this includes SRDs and the like) as a marketing tool might be part of the answer. I do know that if 50,000 people who were never going to buy anyway 'steal' a copy and ONE person is thereby inspired to buy, it's a net WIN so far as the publisher is concerned. Never mind the collateral benefits of increased exposure etc.

The problem, such as it is, lies with those people who would pay for a product, but don't because they can steal it instead. How many is that REALLY? I'm not sure, but I BELIEVE it is a very small percentage. And they're criminal scum... The rest (putatively criminal or not) are just noise and have no meaningful impact.

A'Mal

 

[Nifelhein]

See ignoring all pdfs out there is silly IMO

I do agree, but errata once read can be remembered and is rarely referenced, also, printing themdoes not hurt and they are legal... I dilike pdfs because reading at the computer isnot over what I like the most, and I also think that owning a book in pdf is not a good way for how i play the game, printing can be done too, but if I am going to pay for it and then pay to print I could just get a print copy.

And for the keeping thing, that in itself is not what is considered illegal, the use is qwha it is, but sicne you have it can you prove you did not use it? that is exactly the problem...

edit: also, I was not speaking of free previews and erratas/ faqs, meant complete pieces, like free adventures or rules addons and also, illegal use of downloaded book scans.

Most people who can WILL pay a fair price for a product they want given the opportunity. I believe this and I've seen evidence for it many times. Treating customers like criminals (most IP holders these days - NOT WOTC to their credit) or like suckers (the music publishers since always) is NOT the solution to this.

I gotta say I really agree with this, my experience and my behave have been proof enough for me.