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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Garresh" data-source="post: 7706892" data-attributes="member: 6836323">Uhm? The assertion isn't rogues have to use their bonus action to "catch up". Rogues already match them at base. But they can use their bonus actions to essentially give themselves twice as many chances to hit at any time. Artificers do not have that option. They do have a metric ton of utility, but let's revisit those things on a point by point basis...If you compare their casting progression side by side, it's basically identical. They're both 1/3 casters.Infusion is nice, but all it really does is allow a "delayed buff" that you can give to an ally. Given the 1/3 casting progression, that's really not that huge. It provides a lot of out of combat utility, and you could give someone going to negotiate with a big bad a Ring of Invisibility, so he can escape if things go south. But by that point people are throwing around 5th level spells, and most every face class I can think of could just, you know, cast that themselves? Useful, but not overpowered.Their magic items? All are non-combat, and the ones they get are specifically hand picked to be "fun", not overpowered. Stuff like darkvision, magical lights, a fold up boat, and advantage on investigation checks? Such power! Marvel at my ability to create magic items which MIMIC CANTRIPS AND RACE TRAITS. Heh.Let's talk about AOE. A 14th level alchemist can do 5d6 damage in a 5 foot spread. Roughly 17-18 damage in a VERY tight AoE. This is definitely better than a cantrip, so I'll give you that. A rogue at base doesn't have an at will AoE, but their single target damage assuming a longbow is at 14 is going to be 1d8+7d6+5, for an average of 34 damage. In the rare situation that 2 enemies are standing literally next to each other, the alchemist does about 3-4 more damage than the rogue. The gunsmith does 4d6 for average of 14 damage in a 30 foot line. He might hit more enemies, but the short range and line of it mean its unlikely to exceed the rogue's damage in practice. So we know that the artificer has the rogue beat on at-will AoE, though his damage is still nothing special in that case. But all of that is rendered irrelevent because if a level 14 rogue finds themself in a situation where they need real AoE right now, they can just cast Fireball and hit for 8d6 in a 20 foot spread, outclassing anything the alchemist brings to the table.Now let's see where Rogues one up them. Expertise goes *slightly* in favor of rogues, due to being able to apply it to skills as well as tools. I admit artificers make a nasty dip, but they're still not the skill monkeys that rogues and bards are.Defense goes handily to the rogue, as the rogue has multiple ways to reduce damage taken, both from AoE attacks, and from using their reaction to dodge.Rogues who go Arcane Trickster(which is what we're comparing here), have much better crowd control than the artificer. They can start fights by using some low level crowd control effects on targets, but giving them disadvantage by means of Magical Ambush. An artificer can make difficult terrain and some smoke. A rogue at level 14 could start a fight with an AoE Fear spell, or a Hypnotic Pattern, and force everyone in range to take disadvantage on their initial save.Rogues at level 13 also overcome their limitations on Sneak Attack to a degree, by using their Mage Hand as a bonus action to grant themselves advantage on attacks for that turn, further blurring the lines between the two classes.Now I would be remiss if I didn't draw attention to 2 additional things worth noting. The first is that the artificer is simply a better support caster than an arcane trickster. What the artificer loses in CC, he makes up for in healing ability, and great buffs. He actually pulls some choice buffs from both wizard and cleric spell lists, making him really great at that. But he's still a 1/3 caster, so it's only so good.The ONLY standout issue with the artificer I see is their construct. That thing is beyond overpowered. It's the one thing that takes a surprisingly well balanced class, which feels more like a variant arcane trickster than a new class, and pushes it up to overpowered. That thing needs to be heavily nerfed, or reworked, or outright removed. Whichever way it goes, it can't stay the way it currently is. But everyone's already pointed that out. If that were addressed, I think you'd find that the class is perfectly balanced. It does some things a rogue can't, but loses some things a rogue can. It is more vulnerable than a rogue, but does more reliable damage. It doesn't provide as much control and mobility, but makes up with healing and buffing. On the whole, a fun class.</blockquote>

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