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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7706963" data-attributes="member: 6801228">I'm still trying to understand exactly how this UA as written is so powerful. While yes, the dice they roll seems like a lot, I find it very comparable to other classes. The big comparison seems to be the rogue, so I'll keep up that trend. First of all, in actual play, I have seen a rogue unable to use sneak attack... once I think. And in that circumstance it was entirely the players fault, as he snuck off and tried to clear a building by himself. Otherwise, I have never seen a rogue unable to get off sneak attack as there is always an ally next to an enemy that they can attack. It may not be guaranteed, but it is often enough that I just assume Rogues of all stripes and fighting styles will sneak attack. At-will AOE is very nice, but it has been done before with the sun soul monk, and the Alchemist AOE is very small. In addition, they have to be quite close to be able to utilize it, meaning it is quite possible for the Artificer to launch their AOE, and very quickly end up in melee with mutliple attackers. And let's look at the damage 4d6 fire damage by 7th level, with a dex save for no damage. On average you may hit 3 enemies with it, but any class with AOE ability (ie any full caster) blows this out of the water. Granted this is an at-will capability, but in practice most spellcasters by 7th level that I've seen don't run out of their large and devastating AOEs before they've gotten a lot more mileage. While on the single target side, classes like the Warlock or Ranger are shooting from farther and doing more damage (Ranger hunter by 7th level is easily pulling 3d8+1d6+4 a round). If the AOE was much weaker than it is, I'd think it would border on useless. It is a useful ability, I just don't think it outshines it's competition.  Gunsmith has very good range and single target damage, but doesn't start getting their AOEs until 9th level, and I find their AOEs to be mostly unimpressive. Their force cone is essentially a weaker version of Thunderwave, a first level spell. By 9th level most casters are tossing 3rd level spells as their standards, with 4th and 5th as the big guns (going of memory). You talk a lot about massive utility and support. I don't see it really. As a 1/3 caster by 9th level they have 4 1st level spells and 2 second level spells. They have good spells, and the ability to pre-cast a spell 8 hours before it is needed, which is quite nice, but most full-casters have been using these same utility spells for a while and as a supporter to the rest of the party, I see no problem with it. Beyond those spells, they will have 2 magic items. Now, this is heavily game dependent, but I've been in games where the DM didn't want to deal with encumbrance and gave everyone a Bag of Holding at 1st level. It was barely noticeable. The list of 2nd level items is cool, a hands-free torch, darkvision (or enhancing your darkvision since most PCs have darkvision anyways), breathing underwater, or having a walkie talkie. I see good use that can be made of these items, there is no doubt about that. But not a single one of these things is something I would be worried about a 2nd or 3rd level party finding in a goblin cave. Again, if they were useless, no one would want to play the class, but these are just useful, I don't see the immense power that has you so worried. Except for the CR 2 pet, the more I think about, the more I agree that is too much. Remove it or turn it into a familiar and I think everything else falls into place very nicely. I say that, because the Artificer has 1 very glaring weak point to my eye. Defense. Their spell casting can assist a little bit, but they have Medium armor and no shield, and they are not necessarily a Dex-based class. Look at the other d8 classes. Rogue and Ranger get defensive abilities like uncanny dodge or evasion. Clerics generally get heavy armor, and much more robust support casting, Warlocks (especially fiendlocks) have a lot of ways to get temp hp and punish enemies for attacking them.The Alchemist has some extra healing, and maybe a trick or two if he's being chased, but until they start getting into levels 15 and beyond, they really get nothing to help them survive being attacked or get away, other than the spellcasting, which are the same tricks wizards and warlocks get, only later and a lot fewer. They aren't a useless class, obviously, but I think an Artificer in a group with a Wizard, Warlock, Rogue and Fighter is not going to be seen as the most powerful character on the team. Barring that CR 2 pet, they just don't get enough that is going to overshadow anyone, unless I'm missing something</blockquote>

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