D&D 5E (2024) Unfreezing the Narrative

[Baron Opal II]

Missing once in a while is a part of the game. Missing often because your dice are cold is frustrating.

I have a player in my game who is getting seriously down on their character because some days they can't roll better than a 4. They're supposed to be an awesome crossbower, and occasional sniper, but the bonuses don't matter with cold dice. They should hit about half the time, not about 1 in 6 last session.

Pondering this whilst I was taking my evening constitutional in the nearby woods, I though of this: PCs have a Luck or Wyrd score. This is equal to their Charisma or Wisdom, whichever is higher*. Once chosen you can't change it. The character either depends on luck bending the world to their will or perceives their place in the Implicate Order. Whenever a player wants they may stand up, state "I am the protagonist, dammit!" and declare that a roll was a success. Huzzah! When this is done, they roll 1d6 and subtract that from the score.

When the score reaches zero they're, well, out of luck. It comes back at 1 point per game day or refresh completely after a period of downtime >= a week, or the beginning of a session. If a battle is paused over a break, that would be an advantage to the players. If the score goes "negative" consequences accrue. The score resets to zero and I as the DM can change one miss to a success. I can't save it, it would need to be in the same combat or scene. I'm expecting about 2-3 successes versus 1 success for me per player.

It's a "push your luck" mechanic with no consequences for the first use, which I like. If their Wyrd gets down to 1, they've got one more good roll in their pocket but it will sting. This gives them a choice. Someone might get really lucky, and it will likely be a bard or a cleric, which fits thematically for me.

I certain circumstances I might restrict the use of it. There might be a particularly difficult fight or skill challenge. Needing an 18+ on the die is the challenge itself, and the players need to think of mitigating circumstances, information, research, &c. If so, I will mention this ahead of time and it will be rare. Given the refresh mechanic it won't apply to rolls during downtime.

What do you think?

I'm thinking about mechanics to unfreeze the narrative in D&D. Ie, some creature's turn comes. The creature tries to do something, but rolls poorly or the enemies roll well. Nothing happens. The next creature goes.

That is a frozen narrative - the turn could have been skipped. Sometimes some resources get spent (so bookkeeping) but the state of the battle doesn't really move.

This happens when a pure save-or-suck spell is cast and the target passes the saving throw (or uses legendary resists with no expectation they'll run out), every attack is missed, or similar.

 

[jayoungr]

It happens, and when it happens for many combatants in a row (perhaps even spanning multiple rounds) it can in fact raise the boredom flag.

If it happens for many combatants in a row spanning multiple rounds, you've probably set your monster's AC too high.

Once again, I introduce to the world THE CUP OF DOOM.

Have a cup at the table. Preferably one that is also a skull. Fill it with 2D6 per player.

The players can add any amount of these D6’s to ANY rolls. They have to take at least two dice from the CoD and a result of 1 does not count.

Awesome idea, but I have to ask, what happens when a player pulls from the cup, rolls, and still doesn't hit? Does that just compound the issue?

 

[Lanefan]

Missing once in a while is a part of the game. Missing often because your dice are cold is frustrating.

I have a player in my game who is getting seriously down on their character because some days they can't roll better than a 4. They're supposed to be an awesome crossbower, and occasional sniper, but the bonuses don't matter with cold dice. They should hit about half the time, not about 1 in 6 last session.

Pondering this whilst I was taking my evening constitutional in the nearby woods, I though of this: PCs have a Luck or Wyrd score. This is equal to their Charisma or Wisdom, whichever is higher*. Once chosen you can't change it. The character either depends on luck bending the world to their will or perceives their place in the Implicate Order. Whenever a player wants they may stand up, state "I am the protagonist, dammit!" and declare that a roll was a success. Huzzah! When this is done, they roll 1d6 and subtract that from the score.

When the score reaches zero they're, well, out of luck. It comes back at 1 point per game day or refresh completely after a period of downtime >= a week, or the beginning of a session. If a battle is paused over a break, that would be an advantage to the players. If the score goes "negative" consequences accrue. The score resets to zero and I as the DM can change one miss to a success. I can't save it, it would need to be in the same combat or scene. I'm expecting about 2-3 successes versus 1 success for me per player.

It's a "push your luck" mechanic with no consequences for the first use, which I like. If their Wyrd gets down to 1, they've got one more good roll in their pocket but it will sting. This gives them a choice. Someone might get really lucky, and it will likely be a bard or a cleric, which fits thematically for me.

I certain circumstances I might restrict the use of it. There might be a particularly difficult fight or skill challenge. Needing an 18+ on the die is the challenge itself, and the players need to think of mitigating circumstances, information, research, &c. If so, I will mention this ahead of time and it will be rare. Given the refresh mechanic it won't apply to rolls during downtime.

What do you think?

Not something I'd personally want to play but I can see you've put some real thought into this.

My main question is around having the Luck score reset based both on session status (resets each session) and on in-game time passage (partial reset each day, full reset on a week's rest). Better, I think, to pick a lane and stay in it - either have it reset based only on in-game time passage (a bit more diegetic) or reset purely in the meta-realm, at the start of each session.

If you run this out as a trial in your game and have it reset each session, be alert for players trying to intentionally end sessions because their Luck is low, in order to get that next-session Luck reset, even if the session would otherwise continue a bit longer.

 

[Lanefan]

If it happens for many combatants in a row spanning multiple rounds, you've probably set your monster's AC too high.

Or maybe just clobbering the monster isn't going to be the best way to defeat it? Or it's a hint that this thing is too far above the PCs' pay grade?

I threw an opponent at my group last night - a divine minion, and immortal - that they flat-out weren't supposed to be able to beat. For a few in the party they couldn't hit it even on a natural 20; for the rest, they needed natural high-teens or better. Problem was, they managed to hit it just often enough to encourage them to keep at it; so rather than bail out while they were all still upright they stuck around until one PC was dead and another dying before finally retreating (the foe was defending a specific space and didn't chase them).

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Missing once in a while is a part of the game. Missing often because your dice are cold is frustrating.

I have a player in my game who is getting seriously down on their character because some days they can't roll better than a 4. They're supposed to be an awesome crossbower, and occasional sniper, but the bonuses don't matter with cold dice. They should hit about half the time, not about 1 in 6 last session.

It may be worth noting that monster AC's are so pathetic now that the shooter would hit many creatures on a 4 or better, assuming 18 dex and archery fighting style (+10).

I though of this: PCs have a Luck or Wyrd score. This is equal to their Charisma or Wisdom, whichever is higher*. Once chosen you can't change it. The character either depends on luck bending the world to their will or perceives their place in the Implicate Order. Whenever a player wants they may stand up, state "I am the protagonist, dammit!" and declare that a roll was a success. Huzzah! When this is done, they roll 1d6 and subtract that from the score.

When the score reaches zero they're, well, out of luck. It comes back at 1 point per game day or refresh completely after a period of downtime >= a week, or the beginning of a session. If a battle is paused over a break, that would be an advantage to the players. If the score goes "negative" consequences accrue. The score resets to zero and I as the DM can change one miss to a success. I can't save it, it would need to be in the same combat or scene. I'm expecting about 2-3 successes versus 1 success for me per player.

It's a "push your luck" mechanic with no consequences for the first use, which I like. If their Wyrd gets down to 1, they've got one more good roll in their pocket but it will sting. This gives them a choice. Someone might get really lucky, and it will likely be a bard or a cleric, which fits thematically for me.

I certain circumstances I might restrict the use of it. There might be a particularly difficult fight or skill challenge. Needing an 18+ on the die is the challenge itself, and the players need to think of mitigating circumstances, information, research, &c. If so, I will mention this ahead of time and it will be rare. Given the refresh mechanic it won't apply to rolls during downtime.

What do you think?

Decent idea but I would (jokingly) give it to Strength since WOTC decided it's the new dump stat. Charisma characters already have a lot of spotlight, given that they dominate social and are using their Charisma in combat now as well. I'd just give everyone the same Luck stat, or have them roll it at the start of an adventure or something.

 

[Li Shenron]

If it happens for many combatants in a row spanning multiple rounds, you've probably set your monster's AC too high.

No, it just happens because of statistics.

 

[NotAYakk]

No, it just happens because of statistics.

Yep: if you have a 50:50 chance of hitting, you'll have fights where you hit 0 times if you fight often enough.

With 2 attacks per round and 3 rounds of combat, that happens 1/64 fights. With 5 PCs, it happens to someone on average every 13 fights.

Make a foe with a higher AC - a 40% chance of hitting and it happens every 4 or so fights.

With a 60% chance of hitting it is down to 1 in 50 fights over the 5 PCs.

Now, everyone can just optimize to-hit and the DM can avoid using high AC foes and the "problem" goes away. To-hit optimization has always been undervalued (cost-wise) in D&D for however long I've played it. So if you are doing charop, and your DM doesn't just inflate monster AC to compensate, you could easily almost never experience this problem.

Me, I'd rather players not be "forced" to to-hit optimize and DMs be more free to use a variety of monster ACs without this disheartening problem happening - the "noop" character who does nothing in a fight.

(And doing nothing for 2/3 rounds is also pretty disheartening; the odds of that are higher. With a 40% hit chance and 2 attacks per round, 36% of rounds are noops 64% have at least one hit, so .36^2 * .64 * 3 choose 2 is about 25% of fights you wiffing 2/3 of the rounds. And with a party of 5, someone is a wiff-master every fight. Even at 60% hit chance, 1 in 3 fights have someone wiffing on most of their turns.)

All of this is very sensitive to character optimization and monster choice by the DM. The 40% to 60% case is the difference of a mere +2 to hit and +2 to AC. More common magic weapons (+1), PCs with optimzied stats (+1), and a DM tendency to use lower AC monsters (-2) can turn one table into the other.

Spellcasters who don't get 2 chances to attack per round (1 spell cast) feel this worse, which is why I think most people hate the "spell that does nothing if the target saves". AOE debuffs that have more than 1 chance to land, spells with partial effects on a miss, or spells that impose more than 1 save (rare in 5e), are valued out of proportion in order to avoid "wiff" turns. And why save DC items are so valued.

...

I'm trying to address this on the PC mechanics wise so I don't have to, as a DM, avoid high AC foes if it is thematic. You can treat a giant golem covered in metal as a mere 18 AC with a boatload of HP and resistance to BPS instead of giving it 24 AC.

 

[Lanefan]

Yep: if you have a 50:50 chance of hitting, you'll have fights where you hit 0 times if you fight often enough.

With 2 attacks per round and 3 rounds of combat, that happens 1/64 fights. With 5 PCs, it happens to someone on average every 13 fights.

So?

An occurrence rate of 1-in-64 means, even if you do 8 combats per session (as if!), it's only going to happen once per 8 sessions.

If someone can't handle a once-in-64 losing streak that's at most going to happen on average every few real-world months, that's a them problem and fixing it isn't the game's responsibility.

 

[GMMichael]

If so, I will mention this ahead of time and it will be rare. Given the refresh mechanic it won't apply to rolls during downtime.

What do you think?

Not bad. If it works, keep doing it.

It's easier to guarantee hits or maximize damage though. Especially on high-HP enemies. By intentionally lowering ACs ("bounding" them) WotC all but admitted that having attack and damage randomness doesn't work all that well.

It makes sense to keep the attack randomness to preserve the 5% chances of crits, so I can't fathom why they didn't just go with fixed damage for attacks.

Unless... the dice variety mostly plays out with weapon/spell damage, and having different die types is a sacred cow?

 

[Maxperson]

eh, we gave way too much room to spells, time to reclaim some

That's why you have to ban Magnificent Mansion.