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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Greenstone.Walker" data-source="post: 7020135" data-attributes="member: 6788312">Based on another thread here, I've come up with some thoughts to clarify hiding and concealment and invisbility.Relative to you, a subject is in one of four states of being noticed.Unpercievable: there is no way you can observe the subject with any of your senses. They are either out of range or completely concealed. You don't know where they are, or even that they exist, and you can't target them with any attack or spell or other feature.They are out of sight range. They are invisible and out of hearing range. They are concealed and not making any noise (for example, a golem standing still in darkness or an invisible statue). They are in another room behind a soundproof door. Percieved: there are one or more ways for you to directly observe the subject by one of your senses.You know exactly where they are and can target them (depending on the range of the attack or spell or feature).They are within your vision range and you are looking at them. They are invisible but inside the range of your truesight or tremorsense or blindsight(?). They are invisible but giving off light (for example, faerie fire). Feral Senses and similar might apply here.Percieved, Unseen: A special case. You know exactly where they are but you cannot see them. You can target them, but not with any features that specify "that you can see". You are essentially attacking blindly at the space you believe they occupy, so your attacks behave as if you had the blinded condition. They are invisible but you can hear them or see their footsteps. They are behind an obstacle but you saw them move behind it and the obstacle is small enough that if they moved out, you'd see them. They are behind a thin barrier, like a paper wall panel, and you can see their silhouette. They are invisible but a ally of yours with the ability to see invisible has told you where they are. You are blind but you have grappled them.Hiding: there are one or more ways for you to directly observe the subject by one of your senses but either the target has taken steps to escape perception or you have failed to notice them because of distractions, background activity or plain bad luck. You can't target them with any attack or spell or other feature.Whether or not they stay Hiding is based on an opposed Perception roll against whatever skill they are using to hide (usually Stealth, maybe Deception). If you succeed them they become Perceived or Perceived, Unseen, as appropriate.They are within your vision range but are camouflaged. You can see them but they are disguised as someone who has the right to be there (like a guard or servant). They are within your hearing range but have muffled their gear and footsteps. They are downwind to mask their scent. You are focused on watching a different direction (for example, a guard on a wall watching outwards might miss what is going on in the courtyard behind them). You are focused on some activity and don't notice them (for example, you are goofing off in class and you don't notice the teacher ask you a question). You didn't hear them because when they moved, someone dropped a tray of glassware. Subjects will change states depending on conditions. An Unperceivable creature will become Perceived when it moves into your sight range or when the darkness is dispelled. A Hiding creature will become Perceived when you make your Perception roll or it gives its presence away by attacking. A Perceived creature will become Unperceivable when it runs into the next room and closes the door behind it.Thoughts?In particualr, does it help to have Hiding and Unperceivable? I'm feeling that maybe they are the same.</blockquote>

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