D&D 5E Unperceivable, Perceived, Hidden - an attempt to clarify invisibility and hiding

[Greenstone.Walker]

Based on another thread here, I've come up with some thoughts to clarify hiding and concealment and invisbility.

Relative to you, a subject is in one of four states of being noticed.

Unpercievable: there is no way you can observe the subject with any of your senses. They are either out of range or completely concealed.
You don't know where they are, or even that they exist, and you can't target them with any attack or spell or other feature.
They are out of sight range. They are invisible and out of hearing range. They are concealed and not making any noise (for example, a golem standing still in darkness or an invisible statue). They are in another room behind a soundproof door.

Percieved: there are one or more ways for you to directly observe the subject by one of your senses.
You know exactly where they are and can target them (depending on the range of the attack or spell or feature).
They are within your vision range and you are looking at them. They are invisible but inside the range of your truesight or tremorsense or blindsight(?). They are invisible but giving off light (for example, faerie fire). Feral Senses and similar might apply here.

Percieved, Unseen: A special case. You know exactly where they are but you cannot see them.
You can target them, but not with any features that specify "that you can see". You are essentially attacking blindly at the space you believe they occupy, so your attacks behave as if you had the blinded condition.
They are invisible but you can hear them or see their footsteps. They are behind an obstacle but you saw them move behind it and the obstacle is small enough that if they moved out, you'd see them. They are behind a thin barrier, like a paper wall panel, and you can see their silhouette. They are invisible but a ally of yours with the ability to see invisible has told you where they are. You are blind but you have grappled them.

Hiding: there are one or more ways for you to directly observe the subject by one of your senses but either the target has taken steps to escape perception or you have failed to notice them because of distractions, background activity or plain bad luck.
You can't target them with any attack or spell or other feature.
Whether or not they stay Hiding is based on an opposed Perception roll against whatever skill they are using to hide (usually Stealth, maybe Deception). If you succeed them they become Perceived or Perceived, Unseen, as appropriate.
They are within your vision range but are camouflaged. You can see them but they are disguised as someone who has the right to be there (like a guard or servant). They are within your hearing range but have muffled their gear and footsteps. They are downwind to mask their scent. You are focused on watching a different direction (for example, a guard on a wall watching outwards might miss what is going on in the courtyard behind them). You are focused on some activity and don't notice them (for example, you are goofing off in class and you don't notice the teacher ask you a question). You didn't hear them because when they moved, someone dropped a tray of glassware.

Subjects will change states depending on conditions. An Unperceivable creature will become Perceived when it moves into your sight range or when the darkness is dispelled. A Hiding creature will become Perceived when you make your Perception roll or it gives its presence away by attacking. A Perceived creature will become Unperceivable when it runs into the next room and closes the door behind it.



Thoughts?

In particualr, does it help to have Hiding and Unperceivable? I'm feeling that maybe they are the same.

 

[Lanliss]

Unpercievable: there is no way you can observe the subject with any of your senses. They are either out of range or completely concealed.
You don't know where they are, or even that they exist, and you can't target them with any attack or spell or other feature.
They are out of sight range. They are invisible and out of hearing range. They are concealed and not making any noise (for example, a golem standing still in darkness or an invisible statue). They are in another room behind a soundproof door.

This gives me the idea to give races an actual hearing range, and maybe some bonuses, like Dwarves and Gnomes being able to hear an increased distance when listening through stone. Sorry, I don't have anything relevant to say about the whole invisibility/hidden discussion, but thanks for the idea.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

I don't really see the benefit of this system over the existing system where a creature can either be hidden or not, independently of whether or not it's invisible. In the time it takes to explain your system, you could just clarify the existing system.

In particular, I don't see any real difference between something that cannot possibly be perceived and something that's hidden with a Perception DC of 35. In either case, the DM is probably just going to say you don't notice anything, but if the rogue does manage to roll a 35 then they do hear the invisible statue because they're that good.

 

[Lanefan]

Not bad...not bad at all.

In particualr, does it help to have Hiding and Unperceivable? I'm feeling that maybe they are the same.

Maybe tweak the definitions just a bit, to make it that Unperceivable means you can't currently notice it at all due to circumstance regardless of intentions of either you or the target; while Hiding means you can't notice it specifically either because of something it is actively/intentionally doing or has done or because your perception check is so awful. In other words Hiding might be beaten by a perception check, Unperceivable will not and cannot.

Lanefan

 

[Tony Vargas]

Thoughts?

What about the case of being aware that something is present, but not where it is, exactly?

 

[Oofta]

Put me down as "the rules aren't broken". When you hide you are simply making an opposed check to avoid being noticed. There is no "hidden condition" in 5E. You may know someone (or something) is out there without knowing a specific location.

So yes, I agree you may not know the wolf is in the forest. You may know the wolf is somewhere nearby because you hear them howling without knowing exactly where they are. You may know where they are because you see them, hear them growling in your ear, or because they just took a chunk out of your leg.

I don't see a need to create new terminology to state any of those states of awareness.

I don't think it's possible to satisfy the literalists* out there.

*I'm really trying to come up with a term that's not insulting for people that are typically termed rules lawyers, who think things like this even should have detailed rules.

 

[Lanefan]

What about the case of being aware that something is present, but not where it is, exactly?

How's this:

Perceived - Untargetable. You know the target is "out there somewhere" but cannot currently pinpoint its exact location.
They ran into a large patch of bushes but you're not sure where in the patch they are as you have lost track of their progress. They are swimming and have gone underwater. They were 30' away and went invisible, you've lost track of them but you know they are still in here somewhere as the door has not been opened. You hear movement in the darkness but the echoes prevent you from getting a good fix on it.

A fair amount of overlap with "Hiding", and in most cases this would be a temporary condition anyway.

Lanefan

 

[jaelis]

Heh I did this
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?492003-Stealth-house-rule

They seems like pretty similar ideas.

 

[cooperjer]

In my game there is unseen and unheard. If a creature is unseen it can be perceived in other ways. If a creature is unheard, it can be perceived in other ways. If a creature is unseen and unheard, then it can be perceived by non-common ways only.

Some examples.
An invisible creature running or walking down a muddy path is perceived by sound and the tracks it leaves.
An creature running or walking down a dry path in magical darkness is perceived by sound.
A invisible creature running or walking down a muddy path in an area affected by Silence is perceived by tracks only.
An invisible creature running or walking down a dry stone path in an area affected by Silence is perceived by tracks only.
An creature running or walking down a dry stone path in magical darkness is not perceived.

You may ask, "Why is an invisible creature on a dry stone path perceived by tracks?" That's a good question. I'm making the assumption that the character interacts with its environment by moving and an observing character will be able to see that interaction. If my player suggested he was cautious about not disturbing the environment and taking his time moving down the hall, then I would grant a passive stealth score.

Since I'm a big fan of werewolves then keen smell gets a benefit in my game. If a creature is unseen and unheard then they better also have no odor or an observing creature with keen smell will be able to perceive them. A creature with keen hearing and keen sight will be able to perceive another creatures tracks even if they are invisible and moving through an area of Silence.

If a player states there character is moving quickly, cautiously, and quietly then they are now hidden and a stealth roll is needed. If they say the character is taking their time, then a passive score is used. Can they be perceived by an observer? Of course they can. That is covered in the players handbook. However, can the character be perceived if they are unseen and unheard? It's possible as stated in the details on keen smell, keen sight, and keen hearing; however, now the character may not be perceived by the typical observer. Even the keen sense observer will need to make a roll to determine if it perceives the hidden creature.

If the hidden creature is taking their time in the area of detection, then the observer will get a passive perception score to determine if it perceives the hidden creature.

I'll guarantee all of the above is how the rules work in my game. Some of it may be RAW.

 

[guachi]

I like your descriptions, OP. They're succinct enough to explain different states to players. And the examples are good.