Update Madness!

[MrMyth]

Unfortunately, one of the truths I learned early on as a software engineer is that every time you 'fix' something, there's a non-trivial probability that you'll break something else, possibly quite badly. To try to prevent such broken code reaching the market, every new version needs to go through large amounts of regression testing.

Do you think WotC are really doing that sort of testing each time they throw out their latest batch of changes?

Well, no. But I don't think the game design is nearly as interconnected as your average piece of code. While fixing a power can lead to unintended consequences, or a piece of errata could go too far in the opposite direction - making a weak option overpowered, etc - I don't think that happens nearly that often.

Do they occasionally need to errata the errata? Sure. A small part of it. Just like a new book like Martial Power might offer 1000 new options, of which 5% (50) need errata... those 50 pieces of errata might have a fraction that need fixing. Given the shorter turnaround, maybe at twice the usual rate of errors, so let's say 10% of those updates themselves need errata - or 5 items. And once those are fixed - which is probably done with extra care - we should now have most imbalances taken care of.

The notion that each batch of fixes makes the game better is faulty. The game as it currently stands is almost certainly no better balanced than it was when first published; it's just that the unbalanced areas are in different places.

I disagree entirely. Comparing the game as it currently stands to at first launch ignores the fact that in addition to the errata, you've also many books filled with new content.

If you instead compared the PHB at launch to the PHB with current errata? Then yes, it absolutely is a far better balanced book.

 

[Herschel]

The Character Builder is much of the problem, though... A good example is the recent change to "Come And Get It", the 7th Level Fighter encounter power. Our party Fighter has had the power for months and loved it. She didn't know it had been changed until a week ago in the middle of a combat halfway through the gaming session. It took her completely by surprise, and threw us all for a loop.

The same thing happened with the party wizard not too long ago with Winged Horde. More recently, he had to give up his Cannith Goggles, because they suddenly jumped up 10 Levels.

I guess I just don't understand why it's a big deal. Come & Get It actually works better in some cases now (you can mark more baddies potentially) but either way it works until she noticed teh change.

As for the Cannith Goggles, why did he have to give them up? He's got 'em, just leave 'em via a grandfather clause.

 

[Pbartender]

I don't mean to be cynical...

Then don't... and you want to call players power-gamers, then just come out and do it. They all are to one degree or another, and I won't deny it.

For that matter, I mildly encourage it. After all , they are playing characters that are supposed to be profession adventurers and heroes. They should be good at what they do, and generally should choose training and skills and equipment that makes them the best they can possibly be at their chosen profession.

Just as people in the real world would.

I guess I just don't understand why it's a big deal. Come & Get It actually works better in some cases now (you can mark more baddies potentially) but either way it works until she noticed teh change.

It's less about the actual rules (as I said above, we very rarely have any worthwhile issues with the new rules), and more about the shock of expecting one thing and instead, without warning, getting something else.

 

[Herschel]

It's less about the actual rules (as I said above, we very rarely have any worthwhile issues with the new rules), and more about the shock of expecting one thing and instead, without warning, getting something else.

It just seems so minor a thing to get upset about the unexpected, unless you're in "The Crying Game".

 

[DracoSuave]

Then don't... and you want to call players power-gamers, then just come out and do it. They all are to one degree or another, and I won't deny it.

For that matter, I mildly encourage it. After all , they are playing characters that are supposed to be profession adventurers and heroes. They should be good at what they do, and generally should choose training and skills and equipment that makes them the best they can possibly be at their chosen profession.

Just as people in the real world would.

I don't disagree, however if you're using things that are patently or obviously overpowered in a system designed around a modicum of balance...

Well, when things get out of hand, things get changed to prevent that.

Just as people in the real world would.

 

[Locutus Zero]

Depending on the power source, maybe the gods/archfey/primal spirits/whomever decide that power needs balancing .

 

[Pbartender]

It just seems so minor a thing to get upset about the unexpected, unless you're in "The Crying Game".

But game rules should not be unexpected. They should not be surprises***. There are so many variables and uncertainties that the players already have to deal with in the plot of any given adventure. They should be able to rely on how the rules work.

Otherwise, how can you possibly expect them to formulate a plan of action to successfully deal with in-game encounters? It's terribly disheartening to learn that the last 5-30 minutes of brainstorming and planning and gaming time was a waste, because unbeknownst to anyone a rule was changed weeks ago and no longer works the why you thought did, and now you have to go back to the drawing board and re-think the entire scheme.




***Unless you're playing Paranoia.

 

[The Little Raven]

The difference between WotC making rules revisions monthly and them advising a DM not to change houserules mid-campaign is that the DM knows when a break comes along and his group would be ready to incorporate the change. WotC can't do that. They can only release the update as soon as feasible and allow groups to make the decision of whether or not they will incorporate it mid-campaign.

 

[Pbartender]

WotC can't do that. They can only release the update as soon as feasible and allow groups to make the decision of whether or not they will incorporate it mid-campaign.

But that's the problem right there... With the current system of automatic updates to the online tools, the groups don't get to decide whether or not they will incorporate it mid-game. It happens automatically, with no option to stick with the status quo.

Seemingly, the only other option to give up the exceptionally useful online tools altogether. And that's an admittedly difficult habit to break, after using them for so long.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

But that's the problem right there... With the current system of automatic updates to the online tools, the groups don't get to decide whether or not they will incorporate it mid-game. It happens automatically, with no option to stick with the status quo.

Seemingly, the only other option to give up the exceptionally useful online tools altogether. And that's an admittedly difficult habit to break, after using them for so long.

You're argument really boils down to the online tools not being what they should be.

I don't think you'll find anybody who is going to disagree with you on that.

As you're complaining about esoteric issues (though valid) and we're missing some basic functionality....I would not expect a timely resolution.